Francis Confronted by Elderly Orthodox Priest

Not really! The Filioque was always a sticking point, but even the Orthodox theologian Saint Gregory Palamas mentions that the Holy Spirit comes from the Father and from the Son, but in different ways.

The problem with the Filioque as well as the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, which again some Orthodox theologians believed and others didn't, is that the Pope took it upon himself to make it a dogma without an Ecumenical Council. The Church believes that in order to know something is truly a movement of the Holy Spirit, there must be a concession of all the bishops.

Since these beliefs in the RCC haven't been fully defined and are vague, they don't really constitute a problem so I wouldn't consider them a heresy. As for the sufferings of Christ the beliefs are the same. What is different is that the Catholics place more emphasis on His sufferings while the Orthodox place more on the triumph of Christ's Resurrection.

These things though are cultural as well as semantic. As an example, if you read the Catholic translation of Saint Ephraims prayer, you'll notice how different it is from the Orthodox prayer. Since God though reaches people within their cultural comprehension, we can't really say that one's a heresy and the other is not?

The major problem as I know it would be the position of the Pope. But again how can that be changed without offending the adherents of the Catholic Church. The Vatican solution I believe is to make the Patriarch of Constantinople a Pope of the East, but the Orthodox will never accept a supreme pontiff with the power of the Pope.

The reason the Pope was able to acquire so much power is due I believe to the change in culture. Under the German invasions, the Vatican switched from a loose Roman/Greek administration where the Pope like the Patriarchs were being removed every few years, into a more orderly Frank/Roman one.

Anyway these are just my opinions, so I might not be completely accurate.

 

Compared to what?

 

Christ

 

Good answer.

 

Well, if the Immaculate Conception and Filioque is Catholic dogma, as I understand they are, and Orthodoxy allows you to contradict those dogmas, that would be a heresy according to Catholicism. If the requirement of an Ecumenical council is Orthodox dogma, as I understand it is, then the Pope's proclamation is heresy according to Orthodoxy.

I don't see a reason why vagueness would get you out of that logic. Not sure what you consider to "constitute a problem".

It could be that it is indeed impossible to change it without offending the adherents of the Catholic Church, but I don't see how that gets you out of it being heresy.

 

A heresy to me would be a teaching that would draw people away from God and His redemptive Grace, rather than towards God. I don't see that in the teachings of the Catholic Church, nor do I see it in the Evangelicals, and yet they follow none of the traditions of the ancient Churches.

 

Well, I haven't said anything about what is a heresy to you, I have only commented on what is a heresy to the Catholic and Orthodox churches (I don't even talk about what I think heresy is, or what heresy would be objectively). And I bet the Catholic and Orthodox churches think of heresy like this:

Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs, in particular the accepted beliefs of a church or religious organization.
Source​

or

Heresy: belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.
Source​

(Obviously, the latter uses lower-case o orthodoxy, the Catholic church likely considers themselves the orthodox view as well)

 

Yet the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox schismatics not heretics. I don't believe the official position of the Orthodox is that the Catholics are heretical. What upset the Patriarchal synod in Constantinople about the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, is that the Pope took it upon himself to declare it and by doing so might fall into heresy. Not that he did fall into heresy.

 

Even tough love goes right by the far right homophobes and misogynous.

It is hard to bring one back from moral corruption, without harsh words, when they thing a genocidal god is somehow good.

I have asked for examples of the bigger hearted like yourself of a re-written post of mine, but none seem able to provide one.

The truth hurts and even you cannot find a way to take away the paint I impose on the immoral.

Regards
DL

 

Funny that you presume to measure from a position of adoring a genocidal, homophobic and misogynous god.

Your soul is damned my immoral friend. Not mine.

Care to argue morals?

I did not think so.

Regards
DL

 

Yes, I will concede there is a fair amount of truth in your statements. I'm not questioning the position, I'm commenting on the method.

I'm a bit unclear on what you are referencing in your second sentence. Can you clarify that for me and I'll do my best to provide an answer.

The truth can be hurtful. Personally, I insist on the truth as a painful truth is much, much better than a pretty lie. When people lie to us, there can be no mutual respect between them because the implied trust has been broken and is very, very difficult to repair.

Nevertheless, there are some people (and I'm not referring to anybody here) that don't know how to hear the truth and they need to stay insulated within the lies they tell themselves. Personally, I think that's the biggest betrayal a person can ever face.

 

Ditto on that last.

As to the corruption in Christian morality, here is an example.

In Job2;3 Yahweh admits to being moved by Satan to do evil and sin without cause.

Even with that admission, Christians blame Satan for the evil that Yahweh ordered.

IOW's Christians condemn the hit man, but let the don who ordered the hit off as a good guy.

That goes for genocide and other issues like homophobia and misogyny.

They say they hate the sin and love the sinners, but hate the sinners when they see them and have no problem bad mouthing better people than themselves.

Regards
DL

 

Got it!

I understand. However, the reality we are living in right now tells us that atheists and agnostics have more in depth of the Bible (for all the "religions" in whatever part of the world) than theists.

I was one of them. I was baptized Catholic, went to parochial schools and then a private HS and a Catholic University. The *only* reason I got outside that echo chamber is because my parents were violently abusive. The threw me on the streets with nothing and saw to it that I was ex-communicated (person non grata) from our parish. Everyone in our family for 5 or 6 generations were Catholic and they all shunned me. I lost hundreds of family members and my connection to the only church I had ever known in the blink of an eye. Had that not happened, I would probably be in the exact same position of the people you are criticizing.

However, even when I was a believer, I never tried to force my viewpoint on others and I find it very off-putting when people do that to me. I work very hard to make sure that I'm not causing someone pain, even unintentionally, in my effort to help. I know many, many former theists and I have yet to meet one that didn't say the constant badgering, judgment, self-righteousness, etc. did push them out the door. And, quite frankly I don't understand why someone would believe in a Supreme being that would sanction that. But that's not my journey. It's theirs and they will decide, when, and if, they are ready to step outside their echo chamber to learn more about the doctrines they claim to uphold. Most people I know just cherry pick the stuff they want to follow and ignore everything else. I guess that makes it easier to be holier-than-thou.

Agreed, but, again, you are placing your overlay onto their experiences. Somewhere along the way or maybe from the beginning you recognized those types of discrimination weren't "godly". They aren't "loving". They aren't "forgiving." They are pointing and judging and blaming and sometimes secretly hating other people for no reason other than what they look like, love like or worship like.

Now, step back about 2-3 paces and what do you see? I'm going to just throw out my guess and correct me if I'm wrong, please. If you step back from the homophobia (or other types of negative prejudices), remove the Imagination Guy in the Sky and just listen. Listen with the intent of understanding versus a desire to force your point. Just listen. What do you hear? If you're like those of us that don't understand or practice bigotry, the sounds you hear are based on fear and fear IS a very powerful motivator. Most bigoted people (in any direction) aren't even aware that they are prejudiced. Everyone starts from the position that they are not and they won't recognize it because, to them, everybody on the other side is wrong. It's the exact same formula in politics and almost all interpersonal relationships.

What happens when people are afraid of the unknown? They put up barriers to insulate them from "the monster out there." And, unless something acutely traumatic happens (as happened to me), they have no reason to venture outside those walls. Why would they? Other people that think like they do are in the bubble with them. They instantly feel validated and want to cling to it with every ounce of strength they have. And, when we boil this down, we live in communities because we need one another. We need to know that we aren't alone. We need to know other people care about us.

As difficult as it was to grow up the way I did, and I honestly didn't know if I would make it out alive, I am now grateful for that including the rejection and abuse because I had no choice but to survive and I did. I am no longer afraid of them kicking in my door and beating me into unconsciousness. I know I can survive it because I already have many times. I'm not longer afraid of them contacting my employer and getting me fired because I am my own employer now. I am no longer afraid about being disinherited. As far as I'm concerned, it's blood money and I want no part of it. The value in being completely shunned and thrown on the streets allows me to empathize with other people. I may not know exactly what they are going through, but I know when someone is hurting and I do my best to help.

My father passed right before Father's Day this year and they all wanted to pull me back into that toxic shame because I was always the one the soldiered up and took care of everything and they would throw me away when all their needs were met. I'm sure it was shocking to them that I didn't sell all my stuff and race back there to help in anyway I can because I always did that. I took back my power and I controlled my script and my script says "I'm done." I mention this because my family is very religious but they are the most hateful, abusive people I've ever known. Because I'm the scapegoat, they blame all the family's problems on me (even in situations where I wasn't even there!). Then about 5 years ago, they helped my ex kidnap our two children and take my ownership in a co-owned house and our finances. I was literally left homeless. Yes, it was hard, but again, I'm thankful for the experience because I know when I tell my children (I only get to see them 2-3 times a year) I've got their back and they can stand up when they fall, they know it's true because they have witnessed me doing just that. I don't cower and hope things go away. I have taught them that solving a small problem today can prevent having to deal with a bigger problem tomorrow. I get to talk to them sometimes and they still remember me. They still hold onto knowing there is nothing I wouldn't do for them and I will never ever reject them.

Now, take that snapshot of part of my life story and place it over the comments that you've found offensive. Another assumption, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you will see that it's much, much easier to stay in that insulated bubble. It's much easier to do and say whatever they think they need to do and say to stay within that circle of trust. Those that didn't have that foundation had no other options. The beginning of the end for me was one night when my father beat the hell out of me. I would never fight back against my parents so I just tried to protect vital organs and my head. He punched me in the face and kicked me when I fell breaking a few ribs. I escaped and ran about 6 blocks to our local Catholic church pounding on the door hoping for help. It was a very stormy night so I was drenched, one eye was swollen shut and my rib cage hurt like crazy. The woman that answered the door, told me to wait and she would get the priest. He came down and, in my heart in that moment, I truly believed that God loved me (because that's all I ever knew) and he would help. He told me that I should go back to my parents' house and ask their forgiveness. I didn't understand. What did *I* do that needed an apology? He told me that it was too late for me and I was going to burn in hell for not honoring my mother and father and saying such things about them. Then, he kicked me out into the storm.

Again, as hard as it was at the time, it and many, many other traumas have made me who I am today. All of them have given me strength to stand up for myself and others. They helped me to understand that it's always darkest before the dawn.

Yes, I have heard that many times. Again, they are not doing this just to tick you off. They are planted inside their insulated bubble and don't want to know what's on the other side. It's the same formula for all types of bigotry. If nothing else, pause for a second and consider that they simply don't know any different. It is extremely difficult to believe something your entire life and have some random guy on PF at the end of 2021 tell you that what you believe is BS. That's not going to rattle anybody's cage.

So, the question you need answer within yourself is (1) Do you want to help bring them out of the bubble and consider your point of view, or (2) do you want to write hateful words because you are angry they are stuck in their bubbles? You can't have both. And just as annoying as "they" (nobody here, globally) are with their hell and brimstone threats, they consider you to be a PITA as well. People just insulting one another doesn't achieve anything productive or positive. Check out all the posts here to see that in live action. We're supposed to be civilized but we don't seem to have that perfected yet. What do you say in helping me smooth some of these turbulent waters and find a way to connect without the anger and hatred? Is that a plan you could get behind?

Kind regards to you.

 

Posts like this should be required reading. Well put.

 

Problem with posts like that, is that the other side is not being heard. I know what difficult children are, and if I hadn't taken my grandson every weekend, my daughter would have cracked up. At one time she was even ready to ask God to take her life.

But this is nothing compared to other problems, but since we are highly devout, the attacks are expected. It's part and parcel of it. God does give one strength and an inner peace, otherwise we wouldn't have had tens of thousands of martyrs throughout the centuries assessing to it.

 

Here's an interesting story I came across on a Greek youtube by a priest. He said that an exceptionally good looking young man came looking for Saint Paisios. He said as a priest he had to take him to the Saint in Mount Athos, even though he dreaded traipsing up the mountain to his hut.

The young man's father was Greek so he knew Greek, and his mother was German. At the time he had no idea who Saint Paisios was, but he was desperate for some peace of mind and was told to speak to him.

It turned out that the young man was a homosexual and had so much love for his partner that when he contracted aids he wanted to die with him - yet his parents wouldn't even allow him near him. He couldn't get over his death and didn't know what to do.

What Saint Paisios told him was that from then on the burden of his friend would not be on him, but on the priest who was to pray for him every single day.

Saint Paisios then began asking him if he was willing to fast twice a week. The young man said; 'yes of course'. He also asked him to make some other sacrifices which he agreed to until finally the Saint asked him that since he was a professor in a German University and made a great deal of money if he was willing to give 90% of it to charity.

And again the young man said yes!

 

I was raised Catholic. I was once yelled at by a nun for not renouncing Satan loudly enough. That's the nicest story I have about CCD.

 

Is something a heresy only if a church takes the official position that something is a heresy, or is a heresy any belief that is strongly at variance with the accepted/established beliefs of a church? These Orthodox priests like the one in the OP didn't seem to wait for an official remark.

Yes, the idea that such declarations cannot be made without an Ecumenical Council is the Orthodox dogma that the Catholics contradict. The idea that the Immaculate conception didn't take place contradicts Catholic dogma.

 

If you check the stats, they know it is B.S.

It is the insecurity you acknowledged, as the root, that I try to have believers recognize as what they are appeasing.

Institutionalized homophobia and misogyny are a hindrance to satisfying their tribal insecurity.

By the numbers, hating more than you love is not a good idea religious idea.

Regards
DL

 

I do not think that effective tough love can be softened and still deliver the message in the small window of opportunity that these places offer.

I have agree to have my words proofed and softened, and a few have tried, but all stalled and failed.

I am not happy about this.

The bible says that what you offer is the best way to correct, and I do my best, in my crude way, but see the soft talkers get vilified etc., even more than I do.

I used to have religious friends who put morals ahead of their god.

Now, the right wings morals are ass backwards

They venerate an evil genocidal homophobic and misogynous moral misfit.

Who was Satan supposed to deceive?

Christians for sure.

If you wish to collaborate and see how you fail, P M is the place for it.

Either way, I appreciate your heart. Mine is just hardened by knowledge and Gnosis and knowing God.

Regards
DL

 

Hating more than you love is not a good idea religious idea in anything.

 

A heresy in Christianity is that which is harmful to people's salvation. Contradictions are not heresies, although they could lead to heresies over time. As for the priest calling the Pope a heretic, he has his own mind and his own opinion.

Besides, there are a lot of difference between priests and even bishops in the Orthodox Church - not to mention Patriarchs and monastic elders etc. God did not create robots. He created men with individual minds and a free will.

There are certain Truths though within Christianity and as long as they are adhered to, it cannot be considered a heresy. What I do see though, is a failure of the Catholic Church in the Western world, as well as in most of the Protestant denominations. I don't think that stems true for Africa and South America though.

 

Look like I had a brain hic up when I added a word.

Proofing you can do.

P M your pet peeve.

Regards
DL

 

Have you ever heard "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."?

What this means is unless and until a person is ready to get outside their own heads (religious, political, anything) they aren't conscientiously *aware* of the things that don't fit what they had decided should fit a different way.

For example, when I was in college, one of my classmates came over to study and we stopped to prepare dinner. I bought a chicken and sides to go with it. He freaked out as I went to put the chicken in the oven. I stopped and he was almost yelling that I was doing it wrong. I put the pan down and he asked for aluminum foil. He proceeded to wrap the whole chicken tightly in aluminum foil. I was trying to figure out if he was a serial killer at that point. LOL Obviously, he wasn't as I'm here to type this anecdote.

For him, there was ONLY ONE WAY to cook a chicken. And, seeing me doing something that contradicted that belief caused him to freak out. Luckily, I don't have a hair trigger temper and I'm not scared of other people's anger. That's a side effect of my childhood abuse but it serves me well because, as in the above incident, I had no problem with stepping back and giving him the space he needed to "right" what he perceived as "wrong".

--------------
So, the point is, "tough love" is just a euphemism for "I want to be mean because <blah, blah> and I don't want you to take it as criticism because I'm saying it with the word "love" in it. Note, I am not labeling you, personally, as mean. I don't know you but I do know the post I responded to could have been tweaked a bit in an effort to meet your stated goal.

Spoiler alert: Adulting is hard work. Full stop. LOL

Which bible and what verse(s)?

And, why is <whatever that is> any more significant than what bible and verses they are trying to live by?

Beyond that, what about your position is any more significant to you than their positions are to them?

What makes you reject <whatever you are rejecting> as absolute but you hold them to a different standard <wanting them to reject what they believe in toward your belief system>?

I collect inspirational quotes and one that applies here is "It doesn't matter what they call you, it matters what you answer to."

I'm not sure if you are classifying me as a soft talker and it doesn't matter. You are free to have whatever opinion you want about me and it's none of my business. It bothers quite a few people that I can remain calm in a crisis or heated situation. It's a survival technique when kids are seriously abused. We learn to concentrate on the most important things which allows us to hon in on threats in our environment.

In this sense, I don't have the impression that anyone here has vilified me and I wouldn't care if they did. They are entitled to their opinions and I don't need everybody to like me or validate me so there is nothing they can say that could possibly hurt me. I get cussed out a few times a month by somebody.

And, this made you feel _______________________?

They think the same way about you. All of it is opinions and people are entitled to have them.

Agreed. It's even funnier than that. They get on their kids for having imaginary friends but they have one (or how many ever what book they follow says exist. They are all imaginary friends).

Well, maybe, but what if the "Satan" you have in your mind wasn't another being? What if the embodiment of all our human shortcomings are the catalyst for creating Satan? What if what we need to feel okay is separating those parts within ourselves that represent all the things we picture "Satan" to be?

And, if those <whatever you assign to the Satan you believe in> are parts of us, we should also recognize the "God" part is also. There is nobody keeping watch but ourselves and there is no one that can hold us accountable but ourselves. I realize that concept is very hard to accept for many people because it inherently places the onus of responsibility and accountability on themselves.

You are welcome to pm if you'd like. Or, we can have our discussions here if you want to continue talking about this.

Guess what? You know what I'm going to write. They feel just as strongly about their belief system as you do yours.

Kind regards,

 

What pet peeve?