Funding Education

Discussion in 'Budget & Taxes' started by Levant, Feb 5, 2020.

  1. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Donor

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    Still, the question is, whose purpose? The states? The parents? Corporate? Or the student's purposes? The purpose of each is completely different.

    One common thread in all of them, though, is to share the collective knowledge of all those who came and who learned before.

    Without learning, put two groups of infants on deserted islands. Provide for them silently until they are older and even teach them to find their own food as a kick-starter. Then abandon them. Oh, and leave or teach them how to reproduce so they can continue their species on their islands. Then sit back and see how many thousands of years it takes to invent the wheel. In America, they never did invent it. Same thing in Europe. But in ancient Iran, they did.

    It's often said these days that there's no such thing as new, original, computer programming; everything is learned or copied from Google searches these days. If I had to learn to program from scratch today, it would be impossible. The knowledge I have is a set of knowledge created by thousands and thousands of men (and women) over nearly a hundred years (thousands of years when you consider the underlying science and mathematics). I can use all of that knowledge but if I had to learn it without education that would be impossible; there are too many lifetimes of collective knowledge in what I know now.

    That is the purpose of education, simply to collect, share, and pass on, the learning and wisdom of those who came and learned before us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
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  2. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    I like that response because it shows a deeper level of thinking. I tend to think of it on the same level--that education should start at a very practical level. I know that people are not in agreement about the purpose and the content, which is why I asked you before going into a back and forth argument

    So, to go with your thoughts on the purpose of education, how should such things be taught in school? What taught you the most? What style of teaching do you think is most effective? What does it take to invent a wheel?
     
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  3. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I never said that breadth of knowledge all a citizen needs to know can be taught the first nine years of school K-8, for students who are college material give them the best academic educations in secondary school being generous say 15% of students of each class. The rest should be given the best educations to be employed. Some might go to community colleges or technical colleges or apprenticeships but would be better off exploiting the pretty low cost secondary level of education. EU nations do this especially Germany with the finest apprenticeship model in Europe.

    Now if a student is artsy fine have schools for that.

    I would also add a year to secondary school so more work can be done regardless Senior 1 would be 12th Year and Senior 2 13th Year with pushing students regardless to be their best.

    But by 8th grade if you don't know US History and how the government works and common knowledge your failing in these grades to meet your duty as educators.

    So funding needs to reflect this and employment trends so why not have another cabinet department help with funding not education.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  4. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Clearly, despite your effort at internet warrioring, you don't understand Statistics well at all. It sounds similar to my mate Dave who calls himself a data donkey.

    Its theory that allows for hypothesis testing. Go further and you have econometrics and the means to avoid data mining and robustness testing.
     
  5. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    I don't know about all states, but here in NC, high school students can do courses for college credits in addition to regular credits. Many community colleges have more vocational type training that high school students can take advantage of. When I was in high school, I went to a split school that was high school in the morning and vocational school in the afternoon. I'm glad I went, but after training for three years to be a carpenter, there were no jobs available.

    What kind of "work" are you thinking of here?

    If you place the responsibility on the teachers, doesn't that allow students to blame the teachers as a way of avoiding the work of learning? Also, what do you consider the proper level of learning for something like US History?
     
  6. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ok, tell me how you get a statistic of how many high-school dropouts make more money than you do by using hypotheses and not data - even sampled data.
     
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  7. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Is this supposed to be a coherent argument? Try again.
     
  8. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's very clear. Statistics come from data, not from hypotheses. I can use data to support hypotheses in predictive analytics or machine learning but I cannot do predictive analytics or machine learning without data - real data.

    You're so far off on this one it's just crazy. I do this for a living.
     
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  9. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    I knew you'd put your foot in it. You'd think you'd be able to avoid cliche like "correlation is not causation"? The construction of hypothesis is paramount. That then allows isolation of effect and therefore appropriate statistical testing.

    This is akin to '2 plus 2' comment. Of course data is needed to test hypothesis. Even here you're getting your basics wrong. We dont support hypothesis; we reject or fail to reject. The internet warrioring routine isnt going too well so far is it? ;)

    Then why are you offering such basic comment to make nonsense argument? Seems terribly inefficient!

    What we know is the importance of robustness. Test and test again. That must involve comparison across papers and adoption of sound literature review methods. Right wingers dont like that. They typically come in two forms. First, the post-truther. The quote template becomes "I dont need evidence because I say it is fact". Second, the data abuser. The quote template becomes "Statistics show that I'm right and I dont need to say anything else", falling necessarily foul of the correlation cliche. Someone with any real understanding of statistics would avoid both templates. When will you?
     
  10. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, your Internet warrioring is not going well. You continue to suggest that the peer reviewed papers generate statistics rather than data. You're actually very foolish on this. You're clearly in education and not business. You work in papers and not reality. I work in reality. I never mentioned silly ideas like correlation or causation. I gave you facts - people making money in private education. You keep saying the theoretical papers say it's not possible. The facts show the lie in your theories.

    In both statistics and in the profitability of private education, you continue to claim black is white and 2+2 = 3. You continue to repeat yourself with completely false statements - not just mistaken or different views or opinions, but widely known to be obviously false to anyone not pushing agenda over truth.

    Not being crazy, I am not going to continue to prove you wrong over and over again and expecting you to give a different response.
     
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  11. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Playground 'no, its your daddy' tactics now? Tut tut!

    I'm stating the obvious. Hypothesis testing is needed to ensure that spurious conclusion is not provided. I'm stating the obvious. Without robust testing, then statistics become useless.

    You've been incoherent and then blame me for it? That'll work. I'm a businessman. Being a businessman is no excuse for not knowing how to use evidence. You have shown no comprehension.

    More incoherence! Refer to a statement that you believe is wrong. Then think. Think some more. Don't start typing yet. Think some now. Now type something coherent. Good luck!

    We've gone from your internet warrioring to attempt at empty putdown. Try content!
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020

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