FYI: Navy Lasers, Railgun, and Hypervelocity Projectile: Background and Issues

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by APACHERAT, Sep 10, 2015.

  1. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Navy Lasers, Railgun, and Hypervelocity
    Projectile:
    Background and Issues forCongress


    This is just an FYI thread knowing there are some who are into science fiction, Popular Mechanics magazine and Star Trek.


     
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  2. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

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    To many ways to disrupt lasers. Stick with the rail-gun. Not sure what they mean by hypervelocity weapon since that is exactly what the rail gun is........a small projectile fired at exteme velocity.
     
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  3. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    American hypersonic missile tests haven't gone well according to my understanding. I think China's hypersonic weapons tests have been more successful.

    Lasers and rail guns have to be able to operate within Chinese battle space to be successful...I think. China's area denial and anti-access weapons make that problematic.
     
  4. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

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    There is no defense against a rail gun projectile. That is why I prefer them over directed energy weapons even the my Sci Fi nerd would love to see everyone running around going Pew Pew with laser rifles and such.

    China hasn't done squat and their tests are about a truthful as their budgeting. Time and time again the have made wild claims about this weapon system or that weapon system only to find out later that its all smoke and mirrors. China is in the IDAR stage that basically means they copy/paste stuff from other countries and make some additional changes if they can. They still lack the capability to actually develop and deliver high tech systems from scratch by themselves. Hell they are still getting Soviet Union era technology from the Russians because that is still more advance than what they have now.

    China loses over half of every dollar invested in the military to corruption. People think that the US military industrial complex is unwieldy, inefficient and corrupt........well China makes our system look positively amazing by comparison.

    What is going to happen is that China is going to push the boundries to far and Japan which spends virtually nothing on their defense force now will rearm and then all that money and technical know how will end up producing arguably the most advanced military on the planet maybe even surpassing ours. Japan has the third largest economy and unlike China they don't have to put up with all the bull(*)(*)(*)(*) that literally tears down militaries that you find in one party systems.
     
  5. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

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    The budgets for these research projects hide other research being done in related or semi-related areas; this is how a country with a relatively public transparent federal budget process gets around revealing to others what it is really doing, and how far along it is in anything. How the popular press portrays anything is pretty much irrelevant. Lasers are very useful, and will continue to advance in capabilities and functions, and there is no requirement the research has to end up having to replicate popular media portrayals of what they're supposed to do.

    This is also why at some point in the future you will see the costs and price of an F-35 suddenly drop dramatically, for instance, and another 'pie in the sky' development project will be 'lavishly' funded, and the circus starts all over again.
     
  6. Sixteen String Jack

    Sixteen String Jack New Member

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    I think the Royal Navy used lasers during the Falklands War.
     
  7. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

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    The U.K. has been big on developing electro-optics as a field, and recently Germany has devoted bigger budgets to it; Finland has been a leader in certain developments re communications as well, and Israel has had some very influential R&D successes the last 10 years as well. The roadblocks are as always have to do with other fields, such as materials science and vacuum science research that go along with it; engineering and implementation these days is multi-disclipinary, and roadblocks in one or two areas can hold up advancements in many other fields. With electronics, vacuum science was the major hurdle and severe limitation for several decades, as an example. Advances are generally 'unequal' among the various disciplines needed, and the talent pool at the top is very small, even today. We're just now developing systems science research developed 100 years ago, when radio technology was new and hitting roadblocks. In fact, as far as basic research goes, throwing lots of money at it won't do anything to speed it up; it does help quite a bit and is critical in implementing and experimentation afterwards. All of it was 'science fiction' at one point.
     
  8. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe the Hypervelocity weapon projectile can be fired from a powder charged 5"/54 gun that are now found on todays destroyers and cruisers.


    Video:
    http://www.military.com/video/guns/naval-guns/navys-hyper-velocity-projectile/2293847049001/

     
  9. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Deadlier than a ninja possum...
    :wink:
    Squid-inspired Camouflage, Hypervelocity Railguns and Tank Transformations
    June 07, 2016 — What was science fiction just a few years ago is now among the Pentagon's most innovative new technologies.
     
  10. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Lasers do have the benefit of their payload moving at light speed. I don't think you could invent a better anti-missile weapon.
     
  11. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Below is the Congressional Research Service to Congress released last month on May 25, 2016.

    Looks like there's still a way to go or problems to deal with before lasers can be combat effective on a ship in naval warfare.

    Below is just one short excerpt.

    The entire report can be found here. -> https://news.usni.org/2016/05/31/do...r-railgun-hypervelocity-projectile-programs-2

     
  12. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Uncle Ferd says dat'll fling a heap o' rails atta jihadis...
    [​IMG]
    The Navy’s Railgun Will Get Faster, More Powerful This Summer
    July 21, 2017 - The Navy’s futuristic electromagnetic railgun is set to take a major developmental step forward this summer as developers work to increase the number of shots it can fire per minute and the power behind the system.
    See also:

    Quadcopter That Swims and Flies Could Be Used for Navy Special Ops
    July 21, 2017 - It’s a bird! It’s a fish! It’s … the Naviator. At the Office of Naval Research’s annual Science and Technology Expo on Friday in Washington, D.C., a development team from Rutgers University demonstrated the unusual quadcopter, which can swim at depths of up to 10 meters, then seamlessly launch to the surface and soar into the air.
    Related:

    Trump Welcomes New High-tech Warship to Navy
    23 Jul 2017 | The USS Gerald Ford will lend its name to a new class of warship, designed to replace Nimitz-class aircraft carriers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
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  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    But they are also fairly limited, especially in a sea based platform.

    LASERs work by light, and therefore are easily disrupted. Throw up any kind of interference (dust, smoke, water vapor, rain, fog, etc) and then you get "Thermal Blooming". That is when the energy of the LASER is diffused into the atmosphere and the heat is dissipated long before reaching the target.

    Sea spray in a ship is a big problem, as is fog and rain. Both of which would render a LASER based weapon almost ineffective. It also is a straight-line line of sight weapon. Which means that anything under the visible horizon is totally untouchable. And rail guns suffer that same problem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
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  14. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

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  15. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Were you a 0849 ? (Shore Fire Control Party Man)

    I was.
    NGF Plt. 1/13; Sub Unit One 1st ANGLICO; NGF Plt. 5th Mar. Ampib. Berg.

    If you need close fire support your first choice would be ground artillery and it is more accurate than NSFS.
    Second choice, naval gunfire.
    Last choice, close air support since the high risk of fratricide in a danger close situation.

    But what todays howitzers and gun/howitzers lack is kinetic energy which naval guns have.

    Basically a naval gun is nothing more than a huge rifle aka (naval rifle)

    For example the Iowa's 16" gun, If the round hits with in 100 yards of the target you are on target because anything with in 100 yards is no more, (target destroyed)


    The fragmentation pattern of naval projectiles are completely different than ground artillery. The naval gun projectile is traveling really fast and is spinning really fast.
    [​IMG]
    The above is the fragmentation pattern of a 5" HC round with a VT fuse (air burst)

    A similar pattern using a fuse quick on a 5" HC round the fragmentation pattern on the left goes out
    110 - 206 meters and on the right 137 - 275 meters and in between the two patterns 14 -27 meters.

    The ship providing the NSFS will keep reporting it's gun target line (GTL) to the naval gunfire spotter since it's always changing since the ship is always moving. Extremely important if you don't want fratricide casualties.
     
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  16. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

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    Another Anglican. And here I thought I was special.
     
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  17. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which ANGLICO and when did you serve ?

    Before the first Gulf war (Desert Storm) even most Marines had very little knowledge of what an ANGLICO was.

    Very few Marines ever get to serve with an ANGLICO unit.
     
  18. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Well-Known Member

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    First off that's kinda the point, and I got tired of explaining to everyone that I was not MARSOC.

    I was with the 3d from 2012-2015.

    NGF has, unsurprisingly, become completely irrelevant. I was probably one of the only guys who could actually call in a NGF mission.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2017
  19. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Back when I served (69-71) both the Marines and Army has a large selection of fire support at our disposal to choose from.

    Ground artillery, we had the 105 mm howitzer, 155 mm howitzer, 4.2" mortars and your self propelled tracked 155mm howitzer, 8" howitzer and the grand daddy of them all, the most powerful field artillery piece to ever be deployed in to combat by the U.S. military, the sp tracked 175 mm gun that was nothing more than a 7" naval gun on a tracked vehicle.

    Today all the Army and Marines have is the 155 mm gun/howitzer for artillery support.

    At sea providing NSFS we had the USS New Jersey (Iowa class battleship) with its 9 X 16"/50 guns with it's 12 X 5"/38 guns, 6" and 8" gun cruisers each having a secondary armament of 12 X 5"/38 guns.

    The Gearing class DD's with it's 6 X 5"/38 guns and the newer Forrest Sherman class DD's with its 3 X 5"/54 guns. the same 5" pop guns found upon our Arleigh Burke's destroyers today that only have one 5"/54 pop gun unable to fire multi gun salvos that are required by the Marine Corps when conducting a NSFS missions on an enemy area targets.

    Today there is no U.S.Navy warship capable of providing NSFS that the Marine Corps requires.
     
  20. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    From my reading on rail guns the projectile depends on the outside of it to melt to provide lubrication. I can't see how that would allow the projectile to be accurate.
     
  21. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    And look at how many Marine operations have failed because that "requirement" isn't fulfilled.
     
  22. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Well, this dumb grunt knew what ANGLICO was, had them attached enough times I got to know several of them.

    And the pulling back from gunfire missions is probably largely because there are really no guns to call anymore. With the death of the Iowa class BB, the various 5" guns are the biggest they have. And requesting ground based gunfire is generally faster and more accurate.

    Thankfully, I was still in at the end of the BB era. I joined when the New Jersey was tearing up Lebanon, and got out shortly after their final attacks in the Gulf War. Apache and I have had many discussions in here about a "Modern Battleship".

    But Semper Fi and welcome aboard.
     
  23. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Double post
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  24. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Could be the Marines always had NSFS that was needed to meet those requirements.

    So please list which operations that Marines or any Americans required NSFS and it wasn't available.

    I can only think of Benghazi, Sept. 11th 2012.

    Now it's very likely combat missions have been scrubbed because there wasn't warships capable of providing NSFS that was required.





















     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
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  25. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Or modern technology and tactics have rendered NSFS obsolete and unnecessary.

    Fighting at Benghazi was too danger close to use artillery, especially given that the annex buildings were not in any way hardened. The fighting was occurring at a distance of meters. The fighters there needed an AC-130. The nearest one would never have been able to arrive in time.
     

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