Germany rejects commitment to spend 2 % of GDP on defense

You Sure have scources for that? We only have 5% muslims Overall. In eastern german states even below 1%. We dont have a Single mosque in Thüringen. You dumbass.

 

Given that you guys seem willing to let others do the heavy lifting, I'm not surprised you think it's funny.

But he who laughs last, laughs best. We'll be chortling when you guys come, hat in hand, begging for help but we'll be too busy buffing our nails this time.

The only question is whether Poland will attack Germany, regardless of who the other enemies are. "Better safe than murdered in concentration camps or shot in the back" is how the old proverb goes, I believe.

It's tough to be the world's lone super power. You guys have survived for over half a century by teaming up with us, and now you thank us by refusing to carry out your end of the deal.

Socialists, whaddayagonnado?

Gladly, tough guy. But I'll be watching CNN when Germany's final bill comes due and you guys don't have what it takes to pay it.

Learn to speak Arabic or Russian, my friend.

 

As almost always on this forum when non-American issues are discussed, the amount of superficial and inaccurate simplifications is just breathtaking.

The simple fact that the US spends more money on its military than all other NATO countries, China and Russia combined automatically means that other countries are freeloaders? Yeah, right.
That military budget is pure insanity to me and just shows how mad some people in Washington really are. Nobody forces the Pentagon and the State Department to spent astronomically high sums on its military. Eisenhower was extremely critical of this.

How much exactly of that US military budget is spent on Europe's defence because other NATO countries do not spend 2% of their GDP? Are there any reliable numbers? Or is Trump's "They owe us money" all there is? It certainly seems to be good enough for some simple minded people.
The only accurate thing would be to look at details as to where that US money is actually spent. Is it all spent on Europe's defense? Hardly. There are studies that show that the Iraq war and its aftermath cost 400 million Dollars every day. This has absolutely nothing to do with protecting Europe, and just because Washington spends almost 1,8 billion Dollars on its military every day doesn't mean it spends the majority of this on Europe's defense.
I strongly assume sending an "Armada" to North Korean waters is also 'protecting Europe', huh? Some basic attention to details has never hurt anybody.

I live in Germany, so let me give you a slighty more detailed view instead of that superficial "we spend more money, therefore we pay for the others".
As we probably all know there are US troops (roughly 43,000) permanently stationed in southern Germany, e.g. airbase Ramstein which is extremely important for Washington's drone war. Military bases provide jobs and the local economy benefits to a certain degree.
Some numbers from the 90s and early 2000s (all related to Germany).

Year -- Earnings -- Expenses (million in Deutsch Mark)
1998 ---- 70,9 ------ 286,5
1999 ---- 75,3 ------ 263,2
2000 ---- 49,5 ------ 222,2
2001 ---- 49,9 ------ 208,0

Year -- Earnings -- Expenses (this is in million Euros)
2002 --- 27,5 ------- 132,8
2003 --- 26,9 ------- 127,6
2004 --- 24,9 ------- 123,5
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausländische_Militärbasen_in_Deutschland#Kosten_der_Stationierung

One can see these numbers are not particularly high, but the tendency is crystal clear - the German taxpayers pay considerably more (between 4 - 5 times more) than they gain from foreign military presence. However, this is not the whole story. German governments - the current one, and past ones - always have "hidden" costs in their annual budget. This annual budget is usually 3,000 pages strong and has numerous cases that are directly connected to the US military stationed in the country. This topic is not debated in public very often and one has to do some research to gather information.

Examples:
Every piece of land used by US troops is free, the US military doesn't pay for it. In a highly densly populated country like Germany, land is worth many millions of Euros.
Buildings are a major cost factor. In recent years, the German government has paid 600 million Euros for US buildings, e.g airplane hangars, administration buildings, even kindergarten or school buildings. Plus 327 million Euros for damages to the local infastructure caused by US troops, payments for moving facilities and moving, for example, the air force from Frankfurt to Ramstein and Spangdahlem (including the building of runways and noise protection measures), as well as tax privileges for the US military.
This is all part of a contract from 1975 called Auftragsbautengrundsätze (ABG). I'm not making this stuff up, it's real.
http://www.abg-plus.de/abg2/ebuecher/abg_us/index.html

This contract determines what kind of buildings and facilities the US military is allowed to build, and also that building costs have to be taken care of by the US, unfortunately, the US military doesn't meet the obligations they said they would meet and so the German taxpayers have to open their wallet. One crucial point is the planning costs, this includes for instance architects and construction engineers. The US military pays only a fraction of the real costs despite the contract.

Example:
an American military hospital in the city of Weilerbach, which the US wants to complete by 2018 and which is to replace the hospital in Landstuhl. 43 million Euros are paid by the US, the real costs, however, are much higher, so the German taxpayer has to pay the rest of 127 million (for an American hospital).
When US troops leave a military basis and the buildings (largely built with German money) are still worth something, the German government pays the present value to the US, simplified, one could say that Germany pays twice for the same buildings.
US personnel doesn't pay VAT in Germany, whether we like that or not is not the point, good for them, they can save money, bad for Germany which again loses money.
German language skills needed or might wanna use google translate.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...nd-zahlt-millionen-fuer-us-militaer-1.1820318

Regarding the US withdrawing its troops from Europe: I don't see that happening in the next 40 - 50 years. Having permanent bases in Europe and elsewhere all around the world is much too important for Washington's geostrategic agenda and its hegemony. Air base Ramstein is absolutely crucial for the US's drone war and the NSA is currently even building new headquarters in Wiesbaden.
I wouldn't mind them leaving completely, but that's extremely unlikely.

Btw, those that seriously think a) Germany and the whole of Europe will be Eurabia in two or three decades, b) Putin will parade his tanks through Warsaw, Berlin and Paris next week - try to get in touch with reality again, it doesn't hurt.
If this is too long for you to read ... go back to school.

 

All your excuses amount to so much wind. Your chancellor admitted they weren't doing enough, but then she tried to pull another fast one by pledging to pay what you guys owe in a decade or so. Trump's not having any of that.

Chancellor Angela Merkel and FM Sigmar Gabriel have pledged to eventually increase Germany’s military spending to meet NATO targets to counter numerous security threats, including Russia’s perceived “aggression.”

“Germany is conscious of its responsibility,” Merkel said at a joint briefing with the Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau following their meeting in Berlin.

The chancellor stressed that Germany would abide by its commitment to raise defense spending by two percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) but added it's a long-time goal that is likely to be reached only by 2024.​

 

I'm sorry to see that you cannot distinguish facts from 'excuses.' This obviously was too complicated for you.

 

A pile of excuses, factual or not, don't change the fact that your chancellor proved your argument wrong.

 

I seriously doubt that you have understood my argument. Your horribly superfical comments (and your lack of reading comprehension) have already shown me what to expect. As I said, too complicated. Good day.

 

You have more arabs and russkies than we do. Europe speaks german. We are an economic hegemon. What do you want exactly from us? Tell me.

Russia is patheticly weak. The german state of Hessen has a more powerful economy than russia. Germany is a nuclear power. Nations on our technological level are simply untouchable.

And whats your problem with arabs? We currently stabilize the damage there doen by idiotic USA. We toppeled your installed president Morsi in egypt and replaced him by a secular dictator al-Sisi, who stabilized egypt. We also stabilize Libya right now.

Germany will raise its military budget. But its either our way or highway for you. If you think we fire senseless money out you are mistaken. Such a rise must be done wise. New submaries and so on need time to be planned.

 

Maybe you should have made your awesome argument to Merkel, huh?

You have a nice day too.

 

Garbage. The U.S. spends around $4 billion on its bases in Germany, and another $3.9 billion in personnel costs for a bill of around $8 billion. Your alleged 'German taxpayer expenses' probably doesn't even pay the utility bills on our bases, and yes, the U.S. pays for the utilities.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013...tary-bases-overseas-despite-troop-reductions/

This also doesn't count other benefits, like residual value for the bases we've closed and turned over to the German govt.


The troop reductions — the Army already deactivated one heavy brigade combat team in October 2012 — have resulted in excess military facilities. However, instead of getting cash for the buildings, the U.S. has been negotiating residual value, in-kind payments of services or facilities with a cash value.

Cash payments would be placed in an account and only used for maintenance, repair and environmental restoration. In-kind payments can be directed to military construction.

The committee identified some questionable military construction projects from this arrangement. About $200,000 of residual value, in-kind payments were directed to add sunrooms to senior officer homes in Stuttgart, Germany, in 2007.

“Before the 200-square-foot additions, the homes were each 2,490 square feet, well above DoD’s minimum size standard,” the report said.

The report found that the U.S. has negotiated the return of more than 100 facilities to Germany since 2005, yet they haven’t been included in the residual value settlements between the two countries. Their current value is nearly $1.1 billion.

Your ******mark numbers are pretty funny.

 

Pay what you agreed to pay. Don't continue to be deadbeats.

Russia is weak because we wore them down. Now the socialists in Germany want a free ride while the USA continues to protect them.

You're the guys who have trouble with Middle Eastern immigrants:

'We are losing control of the streets' Merkel's Germany descends into lawlessness​

Merkel lambasted online over immigration policies in wake of Berlin terrorist attack​

Has Angela Merkel made German integration issues worse by letting in a million refugees?​

Yeah yeah yeah. The check's in the mail. Trump's not falling for it.

 

trump is an idiot.

Also i find it funny you think we have Chaos in Germany. What for? I´m police officer. Apprentice still but whatever. Germany is still magnitudes betetr than what you have. You have chaos and more crime related deaths than Afghanistan. Are your proud for your 3rd world crime statistics? Our worst areas would still be pleasant areas compared to your average ones. We had 12 death last year because an immigrant. Tragic. You meanwhile had over 13000 gun related deaths because gang crimes.

So what do you try o warn me? That we must be careful to not drop on your level?

Russia wa always weak. How did youw ear them down in 19th century or 18th century? Germany was always magnitudes more rich than russia.

We pay nothing. What do you think? This is a fee? Even if we raise our budget you will see nothing from that. Germany only orders at german defense corporations.

Do you actually believe this is some fund all pay in or what

When we raise our budget we buy for example more submariens from ThyssenKrupp.

 

Wrong. Trump is the guy we elected to fix what Obama screwed up. So far he’s doing a good job. Such as holding Germany’s feet to the fire to make them honor their commitments to Nato.

I shouldn’t have to explain this, but I didn’t write those headlines, they were chosen from Google. So you'll have to argue with the media's perception that immigrants are causing chaos in Germany.

As for your low crime rate, we have our own problems with immigration that Trump is going to fix. A lot of the crime will disappear once that happens.

Nope. I’m sure you’re as happy as can be that:

During the first six months of 2016, migrants committed 142,500 crimes, according to the Federal Criminal Police Office. This is equivalent to 780 crimes committed by migrants every day, an increase of nearly 40 per cent over 2015. The data includes only those crimes in which a suspect has been caught.

"Thousands of migrants who entered the country as 'asylum seekers' or 'refugees' have gone missing. They are, presumably, economic migrants who entered Germany on false pretences.

"Many are thought to be engaging in robbery and criminal violence."

According to Freddi Lohse of the German Police Union in Hamburg, many migrant offenders view the leniency of the German justice system as a green light to continue delinquent behaviour, says the report. ​

Without our nuclear umbrella, Germany would have been nuked to slag by the Soviets. You’re welcome.

<sigh>Here you go: Funding NATO

 

Not only does Germany barely pay for anything, we can throw in our naval presence in the Med and the Atlantic, which Germany pays zilch for, along with intelligence spending, research they don't pay for, and a few thousand other items that don't show up in Germany that bear directly on why you aren't speaking Russian and pimping your mothers to Russian soldiers today.

 

Without USA, Sovietunion wouldnt have existed since Germany had nuclear weapons capacity before russia.

The rest of your rubbish is nonsense as well. I´m far right. I viote AfD. I want all migrants out and shot at them at border. I enjoy doing deportations. And even i can only laugh about the bullshit you post or quote.

Your statistic for example. Yup crime went up. Evry illegal boarder crossing is one point. Which means just going over border was counted as one. So evry refugee made one point in the statistic to begin with.

Even with this our crime statistic is lightyears better than yours. What have your massive problem with blacks doing gang crime to do with migrants? Nothing. Or do you consider your african american gangs as non american?

Trump does a fine job? Merkel denied his bla bla and said she sticks to the 2014 agreement to raise the amount to 2% until 2024. She even repeated that while staning next him. Our foreign minister even laughed about trump and said maybe we dont even do that.

I know you dont have our type of education but i expect some basic understanding comrade.

 

You are pathetic.

 

lol meaningless stats. The crime rates in white neighborhoods in the U.S. are at least as low as white areas of Europe, and we have far fewer police officers. South Chicago is self-inflicted cultural losers killing each other for fun. You don't know squat about the U.S. or anything it, since you Euros just gas your minorities to death every 20-30 years or so. the longest period of peace Germany ever had has been under the Evul American Empire, so yeah, we built your middle class back for you, subsidized your defense while you rebuilt and kept all comfy and well fed, and now some of you whine and snivel all about how put out you are over a lousy 2% of the cost of keeping you fat, dumb, and happy. Hilarious stuff.

 

Oh my, that is funny! The Nazis tried building a nuke, but didn't have the means or the minds to get it done. And Germany still doesn't have nuclear weapons, in case you didn't know.

I'm so impressed by your personification of the mighty German education system.

 

More than three or four sentences are really overwelming for some people.
The numbers I've posted are correct, but cognitive dissonance seems to be too strong. BTW, I'm very sure you didn't even care to check the links, that's quite obvious. If the US spends so much money on its military, maybe they should learn to economize.
As I already said, but this was obviously too complicated, buildings used by the US miltary are largely funded by the German taxpayer and when such a building is no longer needed, the German government gets it back and pays for it (twice). The costs I posted and that you obviously didn't check are accurate, but I see that it doesn't fit your narrative. Maybe you should first familiarize yourself with what somebody actually said and then reply.
Regarding its annual budget (and I didn't say that the US doesn't spend an awful lot of money on its military), it really seems Washington should have listened to Eisenhower a bit more.
That article says "The report insisted that the American presence in the countries is vital" and I've already explained what that really means.
Blame your insane government for funding more than 700 permanent bases, Chalmers Johnson speaks of 1,000, around the world.

Everything in this context is about Washington's international hegemony and I still fail to see how burning 400 million dollars in the Iraqi desert every day has anything to do with protecting Europe.
Btw, there is no NATO bank account where country A "owes" country B anything. But I can see that in the times of world politics in 140 characters and Agent Orange in the Oval Office who seems to live in his own parallel universe that's not important anymore.

And while we're at it. Do you yanks seriously think that the US military budget will actually decrease once other NATO countries have reached those 2%?
You really think once that happens, the US will cut its budget by one or two hundred billion?
That seems more than just unlikely.

 

Nukes are easily build. Germany could have one within hours if needed you moron. You think a nuclear bomb is complex or what? We build Fusion Reaktors like Wendelstein X-7 which are more complex than anything your primitive country has.

 

You really must stop, I'm laughing too hard to breathe.

So you guys would have nuked the Soviets to avoid being nuked yourselves, but you couldn't build nukes by the end of WWII, even though "Germany could have one within hours if needed" and they're so easy to build (according to the expert, you). Maybe we should get out of Nato, because our allies aren't very bright.

 

Historians say we had the nuke. Even a basic test was performed. Its also said the hiroshima bomb was most likely developed and build in Germany and you just got it. It was a fundamental different design to your Trinity bomb. A design you had not tested nor intended before.

Germany today has several thousand tons of Plutonium. A nuclear bomb is plutonium packed with explosives. You need 6kg to make a bomb with critical mass. We are a technological power. Nr. 2 in the world. Germany is called a latent nuclear power, which has all components ready and as UNO says is just one screwdriver away from the bomb. You openly show your bad education.

 

Wow. Please cite evidence of your incredible bombshell.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_latency

Beside that without us you would noteven know nuclear power. All this was invented in germany. Otto Hahn? Heisenberg? Guess you dont learn that at your McDonalds

 

So, to your mind, having the capability to build a bomb is the same thing as:

Historians say we had the nuke. Even a basic test was performed. Its also said the hiroshima bomb was most likely developed and build in Germany and you just got it. It was a fundamental different design to your Trinity bomb. A design you had not tested nor intended before.
​

(That's a keeper, by the way. I cherish such creative nonsense.)

As for the US not knowing about nuclear power, we learned quickly enough to finish off Japan. Meanwhile, your superior knowledge of nuclear power resulted in an unconditional surrender to the Allies and Hitler burning in a ditch. Well played.