God tells you to kill your son

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Wolverine, Sep 6, 2011.

?

Do you do it?

  1. Yes

    4 vote(s)
    17.4%
  2. No

    7 vote(s)
    30.4%
  3. Atheist/Agnostic/My Holy book has never required such an act

    12 vote(s)
    52.2%
  1. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    I ask my Soldiers every day in combat to kill and risk their lives. Am I the devil?

    This was about handing Satan a defeat, and had nothing to do with Abraham other than his devotion to God - which did not result in death.



    He had no idea. God asked him to do it and he did. He did not lose his Son, God did not allow him to complete it, and indeed has strong commandments against human sacrifice.

    So what is the issue? God asked it and stopped it.

    Contrast that with Jhosephate.


    No, you do not. People are taken in by scam artists and charlatans all the time. It can happen to you to. Rarely will such confidence schemes look like this.


    Everyone dies. Wat happens then? What happens when it is a car accident? Cancer?

    Which is the side leaving out the full context of Abraham in this case?

    Yep, but they do so in a manner that is consistant with the actual intended lesson of the Bible.

    Or do you think the Bible has a message that require people to run around questioning the value and mental health of everyone, and then repeatedly and deliberately ignore contextual citations that limit to negative ... as several atheists have done in this thread.

    Not all atheists are like you Viv. Not by a long shot.


    So, you think I am lying?

    Go ahead and prove it please.
     
  2. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Are angels now demons?

    The fact is that we have different religious mythologies that all refer to the same "gods" so are they all inter-connected? If Hades is Lucifer then the Greeks and Christians are referring to same entity. Does that give validity to Greek mythology because both religions address the same supernatural entities?

    And I wonder at the statement that the evidence for the Viking Gods not being the same as for the God of Abraham. Both religions were adopted by their respective followers based upon the words of men and there is no physical evidence of either ever existing. Where is there any substantive difference between the two except for the fact that the beliefs in Jesus and the God of Abraham have survived longer.
     
  3. kmisho

    kmisho New Member Past Donor

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    Since God knows everything, his "test" could only be interpreted as sadistic play.

    "Hey, Abe baby, I was just messing with your head. And you were going to actually obey my horrible evil command. Maybe I really should send you to hell for being so willing to be evil just because I ordered it."

    Some God you have there.
     
  4. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Your soldiers know what to expect. Would you spring it on them, after letting them think they are going to a 5 star hotel on the beach? No, because you know what they would tell you.

    So he used the man. Put the man through that, because He can't deal with his own issues, which presumably He created in the first place.

    I don't know if He sounds like a good bet, Neutral. In anyone else that would appear to be selfish incompetence and He would seem to be a user. If He has all encompassing power but still can't deal with his enemies, how is it right to let that enemy loose on mortal man? How is man supposed to deal with an enemy which He himself cannot? It's just silly.

    I know. That does not make what He did, right.

    Oh right. The man went through Hell. Thought he was going to kill his son and no doubt sweated blood but that torture is ok? No, it's not. It's twisted. (though I'd question what kind of a man would even consider killing his son. Anyone with half a brain or an ounce of actual incorruptibility would always kill himself before harming a hair on his son's head).

    Post what Jhosephate is.

    I'm not bad at detecting bs, but bring your con on.:-D

    Am I standing there with power to intervene?

    What happens, btw, is that being organic matter we decompose. What doesn't happen is floating up to live on a stellar cloud.

    You. There are clear parallels with the hypothetical situation described by the OP. You refuse to see the truth of that, because it does not flatter your chosen beliefs.

    Sorry, but the Pope is no longer infallible. His team is having some problems fitting the restrictive text around modern life, at least in this country Church attendance is hugely declining. Looking at other religions, the world is suffering from religious extremists every day who plainly do not interpret the religion of peace as it is intended.

    Many are. How can you be offended if they question the sanity of taking religious myth as fact? Or the wisdom of trying to live your current western life by the edicts of an Arab who wrote a book of philosophy when he lived thousands of years ago? On the face of it, it's totally mad.

    Now why would I? Proof, facts, logic...how can one be religious and also require proof? Just use your imagination as you must when accepting religion.
     
  5. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    So the Bible and Christians are morally relativist?
     
  6. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    The God of the New Testament is not the same God as the one in the Old Testament?

    Are you a Cathar?

    How can perfection change?
     
  7. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    According to the Bible? Yes. Satan himself is a fallen angle.



    The Bible does not refer to the Norse Gods at all. Indeed it does not refer to many of them at all, and is quite clear, indeed it is the first commandment, that he is the only God.

    All others are charlatans, and, as you know, many are proveably so.

    Are you surprised that the one making this claim at a time when all others were considered equally if not MORE valid in context has been proven right by not being heaped into the bin of mythology?

    Norse Gods have no prophets. They have no Bible. And the claims their gods make are checkable and testable. Hence they are mythology.

    Indeed, as Christianity spread to these regions, it is exactly the 'proof' that drives the Norse gods into the heap of history.

    Again, hardly shocking.
     
  8. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Context matters. That is a simple fact.

    For example, adultry is always a sin. The punishment is NOT always the same, because the crime is not always the same. An abused spouse who seeks love from an abusive relationship is not the same as a spouse who cheats because he's a jerk.

    They deserve different consequences for their actions and indeed they will get it.

    The moral relativist is the one who says the sin is not a sin. It remains a sin, but punishment is not really about sin is it?
     
  9. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me that you have a preconceived notion regarding what is written in the Bible, and that preconceived notion has led you to a misunderstanding about the nature of God.

    If you knew the Bible, you would have already seen that Satan was defeated during the war in Heaven... was cast down to the earth.. and cannot regain his position, title, or respect that he once had in Heaven. Sounds to me like God is a little more powerful than you give Him credit for. Of course that sort of ignorant talk about the Bible and God is to be expected from those that have chosen to believe the liar (Satan) himself...

    Try reading the Bible instead of listening to what someone tells you.. yes that includes me... don't believe what I say,,, read it for yourself...
     
  10. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Apples and oranges.

    The post I was replying to implied that human sacrifice wasn't as bad then, that implies that it can only be judged by the morality of its time. That is moral relativism.

    Moral relativism is specifically the idea that absolute morality doesn't exist and that actions have to be judged by their time, region, or culture's morality.
     
  11. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    From the perspective of the philosophy of your choice, anything could be said about the Bible. But then again, from the perspective of the philosophy used by some theists, anything could be said about science and the willingness of scientists to use humans as lab-rats. Doubt me, ask some of the black members of this forum with regard to the testing that was done on the blacks with Syphilis. Oh great an noble scientists...
     
  12. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    No, in many cases they have no idea. They watch movies, and like Wolverine and MDF, think they have it all figured out. THen they kill someone or someone is killed or severely wounded around them - and they are shacken.

    Most come out the other side stronger. Some do not.

    If we put ourselves at the service of others, we sometimes do not get used in a manner that is appropriate. Handing the devil a rebuke that caused him doubt was no small thing. Worth the cost?

    Well, again as a Soldier, is the cost worth the sacrifice?

    Really, we have all the fire power in Iraq and Afghanistan and our greatest weapon is a cup of tea. The battle is not about power - but wisdom.

    God DID sacrifice his own son for our benefit. Would you risk your life for the freedom of others?

    Why is this wrong? Because its our Son?

    And we worry that God is going to ask this of us? Blind to the reality of context where the period was filled with Baal worshipers and Pagans? Where there was a need to prove the benefits of faith?

    Well, it must have worked, because today, 1 in every 2 human beings follows an Abrahamic faith.

    HE, not God, promised to sacrifice the first person he saw after he achieved victory in battle for Israel. This was pride, arrogance, and sepcifically violated the commandment to avoid human sacrifice.

    The first person he saw upon return was his beloved daughter. Like Abraham, he could have found a way out, but allowed pride in HIS word, rather than Gods, to rule the day and he slew the most important thing in the world to him.

    Its more likely that we, not God, will ask each other to do dumb things. But we are not asking THAT question for some reason?


    My faith is no con, you can disagree, but like all atheists, eventually you find that all you are really doing is disagreeing. Nothing wrong with atheism, but ... what's the real difference other than your opinion?


    Are any of us?


    Why were we created? That should answer what happens after our creation ends.


    I do it every day. I see the parallels, thus I KNOW it is not evil.


    I'm not Catholic, and even Catholic's think that no man, save Jesus, was perfect.

    A million Catholics just showed up to see the Pope in Spain. Shrug.


    OK, prove its a myth. We've done this for mythology, so should be easy.

    Good luck.

    So half the world is illoogical because you disagree with their faith? How can you be atheist if the evidence for God is inconclusive? Is your faith in doubt less or more sane in our faith in the principles in a book and the concept that has been proven wise and successful time and time again?

    YOu can imagine nothing too you know.
     
  13. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    Your preconceived notion of my knowledge of the Bible is completely inaccurate. It was drummed into me mercilessly by Catholic Nuns, Priests and teachers at Catholic schools.
     
  14. MAYTAG

    MAYTAG Active Member

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    OMG!

    Only got to the first page and you folks got me ROLLING already!

    Ever heard of Abraham?

    LOL, Read the Bible, "Christians"!!!
     
  15. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, "you have a preconceived notion regarding what is written in the Bible, and that preconceived notion has led you to a misunderstanding about the nature of God." , you were forced to listen to a group of folks that are more interested in the financial institutions of the world than they are about revealing truth. That can be said also about any of the 501c3 churches, regardless of denomination.
     
  16. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    They're soldiers. They signed up for it. It's not a surprise. They chose it.

    It is still their choice.

    If you put yourself into the military, you can't not expect to be called on to kill people. Unless you're daft.

    War should be avoided at almost all costs and is rarely worth the cost.

    Yes, British people know how that weapon works.

    He didn't sacrifice anything. His son went up to join him.

    Of course I would.

    How many times do I have to tell you?

    Worked when people need guidance on how to live and when they were naive and easily oppressed and manipulated by mad stories.

    No longer works.

    He sounds dafter than the first guy.

    The key thing being, don't kill your children or anyone else, no matter who tells you or what voices you imagine.

    Religion affects every aspect of life. I don't like that. Your views have potential to oppress mine. That wouldn't be so bad if there was any sense or logic to them. But you can't expect adults to continue to swallow that rubbish and allow it to dictate how people live. It's dangerous. Anyone that detached from reality is not really a good prospect as a leader.

    I meant that in the shark scenario, I could attempt to intervene. The others lack that facility, they are different.

    For the same reason a fly is created. No reason. We are not special.

    Thank you for agreeing that the parallels exist.

    The point was, religious people don't interpret the Bible (which you mentioned) "as it was intended". Who even knows how it was intended. In the case of Muslims, their chosen one stood up for his religion and was politically active. IMHO his intent was to unify his country. Religion achieved that end.

    People showed up to see him here. But Church attendance has hugely declined.

    You're still wrong.

    Prove what doesn't exist is a myth? It does not exist. A guy made it up. As you choose to believe it, you can try to prove it exists.

    I effectively said you can't blame other people if they think you're a fruit loop for believing fiction. I did not say any of what you are trying to ascribe to me.
     
  17. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

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    I don't know how your schools work, but here we are taught to read and analyse what we read and in regard to the Bible we are required to memorise the entire Catechism and be able to repeat it randomly at will by the age of 11.

    Back to front.

    As an adult, the Bible is an interesting historical document with much information about a foreign culture and some intelligent perspectives on how to deal with life's difficulties, but as I don't live 2000 years ago and am an adult with experience of life and capable of making decisions and judgements on how to live...it's not a reliable life guide.
     
  18. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I eat the flesh of Jesus and Drink His blood in the un-bloody sacrifice of the Eucharist--the Eucharist, which is the actual singular event of Jesus Sacrifice--the self-giving act of the One and timeless God in the Peson of the Son.


    Literally.


    It it a supernatural and miraculous event that occurs numerous times all over the world DAILY in the Mass.
     
  19. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    That would be very much akin to people of today in this western world or even the eastern world living their lives by the edicts of a man who wrote a book of philosophy based upon the alleged life of some fabled person referred to as Socrates who allegedly lived thousands of years ago? On the face of it, it's totally mad.
     
  20. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh, yeah....no hyperbole there!:-D
     
  21. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Totally brainwashed then weren't you?

    So say you. I too am a responsible adult (62 years of age), and I have found the Bible to be a most reliable guide for my life. It has not given me any wrong directions, nor any wrong advice: So, from my perspective, I would say that the Catholic church failed in its primary goal with regard to spirituality... It may have taught you to memorize things and become a robot to their system... but it failed miserably with you if in fact you are now aligning yourself with Atheists or other non-theists.
     
  22. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    In other words, when the context changed to something reasonable ... so did your opinion.

    Just like my religion and yours. Only one of us is dealing with the reality of the conyext presented though aren't we?

    #1 - defense of values is important if you value them. Rarely, and I will conceed that this is often done poorly, violence is necessary to defend values and unalienable rights.

    #2 - when that becomes necessary, you do what you have to do. You certainly don't sit back and ask Soldiers if its wrong to murder people while avoiding the context of actual combat, of what is necessary when it becomes necessary to defend those unalienable rights.



    Not everyone in the military kills people. The Air Force Weathermen are not going to kill anyone.


    And sometimes it is. Were the ancient Israeli wrong to defend their homes, their families, their culture, their values?


    A copout answer.

    Agh, well, you just told me you do not understand a damb thing about my faith. The concept that Abraham, from the OT, is drawing upon is sacrifice. Normally, the way to cleanse sin is an offering to God, normally a Ram, a physical and economic sacrifice. Issac is being offered in a similiar manner, ostensibly to cleanse sin - he is to be sacrificed in the ritual manner. God stops that. He does not with Jesus. Because the only offering great enough to truely cleanse man kinds sin, following the OT law, is the very blood of God. Jesus is tortured and killed, his blood is the basis of grace - where your sins can be forgiven through repentence and absolution through God - rather than physical sacrifice. All men, from that point on are 'saved' from teh debt of sin.

    So twisting this into 'nothing' is an accurate view of our opinion is it?


    So, it is OK for me and other people's Sons to be put into harms way ... but this is bad? Unacceptable? Those men that we killed? They were someone's son. My brothers who were killed? They were someone's son.

    What sacrifice has to be paid to defend what is right, and who has to pay it?

    God asks Abraham, a man he has promised and given everything to sacrifice everything. The service of others is not without cost. Not to ourselves, and not to our families.

    Why is Wolverine not asking or wondering about this as he calls us all violent twits?

    OK, so now I am oppressed and driven mad am I? Prove it.

    BTW Viv, you are normally quite calm, collected, and intelligent, yet here you are calling me naive, easily oppressed (Are Army Rangers people you think are easily cowed into submission?) and easily manipulated by any charlatan (people with high IQs and advanced degreees easily manipulated?).

    Who exactly is being driven mad?

    We've gone from a few - to half of man kind and growing. It certainly seems to be working.

    And I can into, indeed have gone into, the worst places in the world, and, in each of those places, I have found men and women with a faith very similiar to my own, and that has laid the basis of trust, friendship, and nearly miraculous turn arounds.

    Oh, it works.


    #1 - the one that actually did was never told by anyone to kill his daughter - his pride did.

    #2 - I am afraid that I am headed back to combat in Afghanistan, and there is a very good chance that I will have to kill people. Those that I order to kill, will do so as well.

    Do you want to have an actual discussion about violence, or do you want to act like Wolverine or MDF, and simply tell people that violence makes them bad?

    Or if failing to defend the weak when you are strong and capable what makes you weak? Horrible?

    There are no easy answers on that one Viv.


    Well, atheism tells you that my faith is bad, and so you say it. So you buy it. Atheism preaches that religion is bad and delusion, but none of you can prve that can you? So just repeat the mantra, huh?

    Your views, BTW, as you look at North Korea, quite clearly have the potential to suppress mine as well.

    Fortunately, in the aftremath of the 30 years war, Christians have a very strong secular tradition that is deeply ingrained in our societies. So, there is not so much to worry about.


    And if you lack the ability to intervene are you a bad person?


    And that reason would be? Flies exist why?

    In fact, it is your contention that a massive fuel source just appeared out of nothing for no reason, and that nothing exploded for no reason, and we have wound down through the eons .... for no reason?

    Well, we disagree. Your faith in nothing is not better than our faith in something.

    And my point is that the VAST majority of them do. There are moderate, straightforward Christians telling you atheists that the preversion of Abraham as you teach it is wrong. The Seminaries do not teach that lesson, our doctrinal manuals do not teach that lesson. Yet still, over and over, you insist on apply the fundamentalist view - or even your own views - in place of the accepted norm.

    Do you atheists really think Christians eat children? What drives WHO batty?


    That is one church. The Catholic Church is only one.

    And the way the atheists behaved while the Pope was talking? Well, lets just, readng the quotations in the press, people were horrified at the treatment metted out by atheists.

    These things rise and fall, people turn away from God for a time, he's still there, we still love him, and the angry sheep eventually figure out that being angry is silly.

    There are some legitimate and honorable atheists out there, but the core of modern atheism is built upon a lie of the reality of religion.

    http://www.atheists.org/religion

    Take on the word of a professional historian. That is crap. Its an oversimplied lie built on deliberate ommissions and exaggerations, the hand wave of the complex.

    People don't like being lied to Viv. And that kind of crap, all too common in modern atheism, like McCarythism, will plateau. When it does, I will feel bad for the real atheists. They will be left holding the bags, and the intigators will dump them with the excuses, "I was always Christian, just dabbling, but when I saw that ... (or, in reality was confronted with that and saw that people were starting to get angry with my lies .... I lied again)"

    The lessons of history reinforce the lessons of faith.

    Am I?


    If a guy made it up, there should be evidence of that. Instead, we have historica documents in contemporary Roman and Jewish circles, (extra Biblical)and indeed in early Christian documents. Jesus was quite real, as was his ministry and its effects on the Population.

    What you advcoate is the Jesus Myth, and it has been rubbished in this forum dozens of time, and, indeed, in the wider academic community has been so thoroughly rubbished that most period historians will not even address it anymore, because it has taken on the anguuish of conspiracy.

    "Contemporary New Testament scholars have typically viewed their arguments as so weak or bizarre that they relegate them to footnotes, or often ignore them completely.... The theory of Jesus' nonexistence is now effectively dead as a scholarly question."

    http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm

    In other words, your hypothesis has ben tested, repeatedly, and found to be without merit - but atheists still advocate it for some reason? Why?
     
  23. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    And I say being a jerk is just that.

    If you hold such a derisive opinion of people based solely on their faith, well, like I said, prove it. You can't. And neither can any other atheist.

    Is it better to say, "Well, you are black therefore you are worse than me!," or, "You are gay! Therefore you are worse than me!" or, "You ive in the South (or Africa), and therefore are dumber than me!"

    How is such an opinion the result of an intellectual rather than emotional process?

    The evidence for God, sceintifically speaking is inconclusive. You are an atheist. You are certain. I am a theist, I am certain. What is the intellectual difference?

    Notice that I, indeed many of us, do not say, "Well, you are an atheist, so you must be dumber than us."

    Curious.
     
  24. FreeWare

    FreeWare Active Member Past Donor

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    Wow, as of today 15% would kill their own children due to voices in their heads.

    That's scary stuff.
     
  25. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Is this a symbolic or real form of cannabalism? Strange teachings IMO.
     

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