Gods in the classroom

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Robert Urbanek, Oct 8, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nonsense, a prayer that doesn't mention Jesus isn't Christian, and would be accepted by everyone but the village atheists.

    Atheism is state policy there, they're quite a bit further down the line persecuting Christians than secular humanists here.

    What church is established by school prayer? Anglicanism? Methodism? Judaism? Islam? Baptist? The very Congress that wrote the 1A the next day established a national day of prayer, which didn't establish a state church either. We have separation of church and state, not separation of faith and state.

    Where did they condemn slavery?

    Speaking of the Founders, this quote is from SCOTUS Justice Joseph Story, appointed by James Madison, the 'Father of the Constitution':

    § 1868. Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [1A], the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.

    Even Thomas Jefferson authorized government funding for Christian missionaries to the Indians in the Northwest Territories. BTW, I don't even call he or Franklin deists as is often claimed, they both believed God intervened in our affairs, which deists don't.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  2. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Messages:
    16,381
    Likes Received:
    7,057
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You really can't teach or learn much about Western philosophy, art, or literature without your students understanding Christian vocabulary, the Christian holidays, and Christian symbolism. Its just absorbed in almost every aspect of our heritage and culture. So is much of Judaism and less so Islam But we do not need teach any of these as a matter of faith. That is the job of parochial schools.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  3. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not mentioning Jesus in a prayer at church or any other place doesn't make that prayer non-Christian. Jesus's first prayer didn't mention himself but this is the foundation of Christian prayer.

    North Korea's state religion is Juche and is forced on every citizen. North Korea is arguably the most religious nation in the world.

    The constitution doesn't permit Congress to make any law concerning an establishment of religion. This is interpreted by our Supreme Court to be laws that establish an official religion or favor one religion over another. Forcing Christian religious ceremonies established in the bible on the public education system is a clear violation of our rights.

    I am not hating on our founders, but just pointing out that they weren't perfect, and it often takes generations for us to begin to live up to our principles.
    https://www.monticello.org/thomas-jefferson/jefferson-slavery/jefferson-s-attitudes-toward-slavery/
    https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/slavery/ten-facts-about-washington-slavery/

    Yes, it took us a long time to truly and consistently follow our principle of the separation of church and state. Even the founders weren't perfect.

    For example the Alien and Sedition act outlaws criticism of some criticism of the president and resulted in many people being imprisoned for exercising their rights. This act wasn't struck down by the Supreme Court.

    America also had quite a bit of religious persecution. An example is how the Mormons were driven out of their homes and many of them were killed. The state of Missouri issued an executive order calling for the extermination of the Mormons.
     
    btthegreat likes this.
  4. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And I would argue, at least something of the Bible.

    I'm not arguing for that.
     
  5. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So such prayers in Congress and the SCOTUS should mention Jesus then since it does't make it Christian?

    Much like some try to force secular humanism on all citizens.

    Interesting you think secular humanism is a religion.

    No, it was intended to prevent Congress from establishing a state church, as in the UK. Several states had official churches into the 1820s. When they said 'religion' they meant Christianity, the Founders assumed this to be a Christian nation, which it still is, and intended to foster that. One of them even said our system was wholly dependent on a moral and religious people, and is completely inadequate for any other. We're beginning to see the truth of that.

    You mean the same SCOTUS that begins the day with a benediction, and whose building has six depictions of Moses the lawgiver? What church does that establish?

    Bunk, it doesn't establish any Christian denomination. And the only force involved is stopping districts from doing what they want. I have a friend in Louisiana who said in some school districts there they ignore that law and pray anyway. Good for them, just like the Sanctuary Cities.

    Point taken, slavery was a wrong but not as great a one as our mass slaughter of unborn children by abortion today. In both cases a certain class of humans are deemed less than human and therefore expendable. Back to the topic, school prayer has nothing to do with that, unless the Founder's words and deeds are twisted into an ACLU-type secular humanism.

    And unfortunately, we see such anti-religious bigotry today. Thank God Trump is pushing back on the religious freedom front. Now THAT is living up to our Founder's principles. Their whole governmental premise was that we are given certain rights by God, not men, which rights are then loaned to politicians temporarily by the consent of the governed.

    Do you think our national motto on my avatar establishes a state church? Are children allowed to repeat it in public schools, or the pledge of allegiance?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  6. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    10,833
    Likes Received:
    4,092
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Mentioning Jesus doesn't make it a Christian prayer, its the structure of the prayer that matched Christian practice.

    Secular humanism is more of a philosophy of action and not all atheists believe it. Juche is a mythology. Very different. Humanism is about helping people and respecting their rights and equality. North Koreans don't respect human life or rights. They are also not secular and believe in Juche. They are as opposite to secular humanism as you can get.

    One way that Congress can try to sneak around this rule of not establishing a state religion is to establish it unofficially. This happens when they give preference to one religion over another, and the more they do this, the more the state religion is unofficially established.

    Depends on whether state governments should follow the constitution. That was still being hashed out.

    Some founder were Christian, and some opposed Christianity. Some thought our rights came from nature and others from God. Today, we are definitely not a Christian nation and our youngest generation is only half Christian. Even if we were a Christian nation, that is no excuse for establishing a state religion unofficially.

    These are examples of how we still give preference Christianity and this is a violation of the separation of church and state. We obviously aren't perfect yet.

    The constitution doesn't say the separation has to be a specific denomination. Obviously it can't establish a group of religions either, like Christian religions, or Judeo-Christian religions. Else we could make Islam the state religion as long as we don't specify the type of Islam.

    My point was that we don't always follow our own principles perfectly and we never have.

    Bigotry isn't exclusive to religion and can be done by non-religious people too. Its also possible non-religious people could try to suppress religion which is also a violation of the constitution.

    It doesn't completely establish a state religion, but it does prefer one religion over another which moves in the direction of unofficially establishing it.

    We just take religious language out of the pledge. However preventing children from using religious language is also a violation of the separation of church and state.
     
  7. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    27,769
    Likes Received:
    4,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yes an understanding of the past is relevant to understanding where we are in today’s world. By all means do teach about Christianity as another failed relic of past ignorance.
     
  8. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2014
    Messages:
    13,350
    Likes Received:
    11,517
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No doubt you were studying the greek Gods as a study of mythology. Now if the Bible or Koran was studied in school as mythology who could object?
     
    WillReadmore likes this.
  9. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2014
    Messages:
    13,350
    Likes Received:
    11,517
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Highly unlikely that greek mythology was studied in the public school as claimed. My BS detector detected a strong stench upon reading the OP.
     
  10. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2014
    Messages:
    13,350
    Likes Received:
    11,517
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I bet if the public schools started having muslim prayers in class you would be rather upset. Let the people who want do utter invocations to an invisible sky man do it on their own time.
     
  11. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2014
    Messages:
    13,350
    Likes Received:
    11,517
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not believing in an invisible sky man is not a religion.
     
  12. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2014
    Messages:
    13,350
    Likes Received:
    11,517
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How about a general prayer to Allah?
     
  13. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    LOL, sorry to disappoint you, but outside of the dying West, Christianity is booming. It is projected to grow 35% globally from 2015-2050.
     
  14. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't believe in an invisible sky man either.
     
  15. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm not advocating for any sectarian prayer, just one to God, like Congress and the SCOTUS do. See my avatar.
     
  16. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Messages:
    27,769
    Likes Received:
    4,921
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yes it is growing in the third world uneducated population. In the first world where education levels are higher it is dying.
     
    JET3534 likes this.
  17. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    20,754
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sunday school is there to teach you about your God.
     
  18. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    20,754
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You can pray to your God anytime you wish just don't force others to get involved..
     
    JET3534 likes this.
  19. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well that's elitist, if not racist. Are South Korea and China third world? China was about to overtake us, at least until Trump came along. For the most part, Jesus didn't choose the educated to be His disciples, and it was the most educated of His day who most opposed Him.
     
  20. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Schools force all kinds of things. How about you don't force others?
     
  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,710
    Likes Received:
    13,466
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Religion should be taught from a historical context - the good -the bad -and the ugly.

    Religious ideology should also come up in the context of "Propaganda" - now relabeled "Public Relations" Kids should be aware of the various mechanisms used by various actors in society - to control or influence their thoughts.

    Religious ideology should also come up when the founding principles are taught - Children should know the difference between a Secular State and a Theocracy - and how our system fits into this equation.

    Unfortunately - through 12 years of school we manage not to teach kids the principles on which this nation was founded. Nor do we teach kids about the various Propaganda influences - other than perhaps a mention in passing.

    We want obedient sheep - not rational individuals who think for themselves and who can engage in critical thinking.

    Das ist verboten !!
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  22. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That would be challenged as a direct violation of the 1A, which was to protect religion from government, not the other way around.

    We are neither, we have separation of church and state, not faith and state. The Founders intended to foster Christianity, insofar as it didn't violate the conscience of others.

    That is one reason why I'm a Christian.
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2010
    Messages:
    63,710
    Likes Received:
    13,466
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How does teaching about "Propaganda" violate 1A ?

    Once again you are confused - Law - with respect to essential liberty - is not made on the basis of religious belief in this nation.

    That's fine and you are welcome to your opinion - but - not everyone wants to be an obedient sheep.
     
  24. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    Messages:
    15,854
    Likes Received:
    11,608
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Religious or secular propaganda? Denigrating either is a violation.

    Our Founding documents state our rights come from God.

    Agreed, not wanting to obey is the prime reason many aren't Christian, whatever the stated reason. God is rarely embraced because evidence weighs in His favor. He is denied because we don't want Him interfering in our lives.
     
  25. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    317
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male

    9 in 1959, or so, would make you 69 years of age, or so. Imagine the torment if you had to live in doubt for many hundreds of 69 years, or so...
     

Share This Page