Government Welfare vs Private Charities

Discussion in 'Budget & Taxes' started by Ndividual, May 2, 2016.

  1. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    It makes little difference to average Americans the root reasons why the prices of their goods and services increase. These increases, no matter what causes the increase, is inflation to the consumer. It's something all of us must learn to manage...
     
  2. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Actually the FED and government is the problem. If they ceased to exsist we would see better employment rates and terms, more satisfying prices and a happier society.

    It is a useless and pointless job.
     
  3. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Please explain how the Fed and the government are a problem to you? What specifically in your life cannot be fulfilled because of the Fed and government?
     
  4. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    First of all, FED and government sitting a tree...

    For money to be as healthy it is important it is entirely taken out of stare control. Otherwise they'll just manipulate the currency and cause chaos.

    The government restricts, regulates and controls pretty much every aspect my life. I want to be left alone.
     
  5. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Are you aware that under the Ford administration the "gold clause" was re-instated and contracts can once again be lawfully written based upon payment in American Gold Eagles, the lawful money of the United States? In short, by mutual agreement, I could establish payment in US minted gold coins for the purchase or sale of any item or my labor and I've actually done that. I sold an RV a few years ago for $200 in American Gold Eagles (i.e. four $50 Gold Eagles) which reduced the sales tax paid on the title transfer for the buyer. As I recall $50 Gold Eagles were selling for about $1300 each so the sales price in Federal Reserve Notes would have been $5200 and the sale tax would have been about $416 (about 8%) but because the transfer was made with "lawful money" the sales tax was only $16. It was completely legal based upon the "gold clause" that Ford re-instituted in about 1977.

    There really hasn't been "inflation" related to lawful money (gold and silver coins produced by the US Mint) in the United States over the last 100 years but there has been "inflation" due to the discounted value of Federal Reserve (promissory) notes in the US economy.
     
  6. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    U.S. Code › Title 12 › Chapter 3 › Subchapter XII › § 411

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/411

    We have two forms of legal tender in the United States. We have "coins" created by the US Mint out of Gold, Silver, and Platinum today and they are the "lawful money" of the United States and we also have currency that is a promissory note (promising payment in the gold, silver and platinum coins produced by the US Mint) both of which are legal tender. The law specifically states that a person can, on demand, present a Federal Reserve note for redemption but this law is not being enforced by the Federal government. The issuance of a promissory note with no intention of fulfilling the promise is fraud and I have a problem with fraud being committed by the Federal Reserve in the issuance of Federal Reserve notes.

    We can also note that the US Constitution establishes that a "state" can only make payments in gold and silver coins so if the person receives a check from the State Treasury, and presents it at the State Treasury, under the US Constitution the State must redeem the check in American Eagle gold or silver coins but the States won't do that. If you take it to the bank to cash the bank isn't under the Constitutional requirement but the States are. The states cite US statutory law in refusing to comply with the Constitutional requirement but federal law is subordinate to and not superior to the Constitutional requirement.

    We can even note that in the "Legal Tender" case of Julliard v Greenman that the US Supreme Court explicitly established that the use of legal tender currency did not change the Constitutional requirement for the states to pay all debts in gold and silver coins.

    http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/110/421.html

    So yes, as a person I have a serious problem with the Federal government's refusal to enforce the law when it comes to the redemption of Federal Reserve notes on demand and I also have a serious problem with the States refusing to comply with the US Constitution in making all payments in gold and silver coinage.

    The refusal to enforce our laws related to the redemption on demand of Federal Reserve notes in American Eagle coins results in the "theft of labor" of the person because the value of the currency is depreciated over time. In short if I'm paid $100 for my labor I can immediately purchase $100 worth of goods but if I put that $100 in my drawer then, due to "inflation" (depreciation of the promissory note) in five years I might only be able to purchase $90 (90%) worth of the same goods. I've lost $10 in purchasing power because I wasn't paid in "lawful money" for my labor and I was unable to convert the currency at face value for the lawful money on demand as the law requires.

    I would remind you that the US government cannot "create money" under the Constitution. Article I Section 8 Clause 4 states the government is to "coin money" and coining is a manufacturing process to make certified tokens from metal (e.g. gold and silver that are literally "money" because they're a commodity with value). The government cannot create gold or silver but it can and does "coin" the gold and silver to create "certified tokens" that are designated as "legal tender" money in our economy.
     
  7. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I suspect your life, and others, will be much worse if allowed to function in a free-for-all society...
     
  8. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Inflation is the long-term increase in consumer prices. Whether it be dollars, or gold and silver, whatever their perceived values might be, this determines their buying power. If gold is worth $20 it can buy $20 of goods...if it's worth $1000 it can buy $1000 of goods. The dollar, your gold and silver, all have varying values depending on what's going on.

    A contract can exchange anything the parties are in agreement...from gold to silver to dollars to waffles...
     
  9. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Nothing you mention above is a problem to you or anyone and is not keeping you from fulfilling your life based on your potential...
     
  10. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    There hasn't been a significant increase in the price of goods relative to US Minted Gold coins. I'll pick a random item to compare.

    The purchase price of Ford automobile in 1925 ranged from $260 to $660 dollars (see attachment) for an average of about $460 in $20 Double Eagle gold coins. Nine $50 American Gold Eagles (Apmex spot price $1425) and one $10 American Gold Eagle (Apmex spot price $325) coins today, equaling $460 in "legal tender" value, have a combined purchasing power of $13,150 on the market and I found numerous ads for a new 2016 Ford Focus priced at $17,000.

    Of course it's true that $17,000 is more than $13,150 but we need to remember that the US government devalued the gold coins being produced by the US Mint by 60% with the Gold Bullion Coin Act 1985 so the same amount of gold coinage in weight, or in $20 Double Eagle coins that would have been used to purchase a new Ford in 1925, would be worth about $32,875 in purchasing power and that will purchase most of the new 2016 cars on the Ford dealer's lot.

    Devaluing of the coinage by the US government has nothing whatsoever to do with inflation.

    This doesn't even take into account that any new 2016 car is significantly better mechanically, performance wise, safety wise, reliability wise, and gets significantly better gas mileage than any car produced in 1925 all of which adds to the value of the automobile.
     

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  11. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    In 1996 I deposited $50,000 of my personal money into a bank account for security on my wife's business and that money has not been touched. Today it only has the relative 1996 purchasing power of $32,750.00 so I've lost $17,250 and that could be why I don't have that new bass boat from Bass Pro Shops that I've had my eye on. That was my labor that was stolen by the Federal Reserve because the Federal Reserve is committing an act of fraud and refuses to comply with the law that requires them to redeem Federal Reserve notes in American Eagle coins (lawful money).

    Don't tell me that the theft of my labor stored in Federal Reserve notes based upon violations of the law and fraud being committed by the Federal Reserve that creates inflation doesn't adversely effect me personally.

    http://www.davemanuel.com/inflation-calculator.php
     
  12. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the worst is faith based initiatives.... tax payers forced to donate to a religion they do not believe in, tax payers should not have to bail out religions

    http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/history_of_the_separation_of_chu.htm

    "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
    - Benjamin Franklin: in letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780"

    .
     
  13. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    The price of gold moves up and down and the price of goods and services moves up and down every minute of the day. The price of gold can move at warp speed versus inflation so the buying power of gold will certainly vary on a daily basis...
     
  14. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    You still have $50K plus the accrued interest. The only thing that has changed since 1996 is the cost of goods and services...inflation. If government didn't try to control inflation your purchasing power on that $50K might only be $10K today. No one stole anything from you...
     
  15. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Interest on money has absolutely nothing to do with inflation. Historically the cost of using someone else's money, which is what the bank does with deposits, has been between 4%-6%. So when I made my deposit the bank should have, based upon history, been paying me about 5% for the use of my money. In the time period from 1996 and today, based upon an average historical value of payment for the use of money of 5%, I should not only be able to purchase the same amount of goods in dollar amounts that I could in 1996 but I should also be able to purchase an additional $85,632 from the interest in goods at 1996 prices. Of course I haven't been paid 5% interest because of the Federal Reserves nefarious manipulation of the interest rates for the benefit of the banking industry and the value of my deposit based upon purchasing power has been decreased because the Federal Reserve refuses to redeem Federal Reserve notes in that which they promise (i.e. lawful money) as required under the law and our government isn't enforcing the law.

    There has been no inflation related to the lawful money of the United States as my example on the purchase of a Ford automobile in 1925 and today illustrated. In fact because of advancements in artificial intelligence and technology the cost of an automobile has been significantly reduced because the Ford automobile we can purchase today in "lawful money" is vastly superior to the Ford automobile we could purchase in 1925.

    What we actually refer to when we talk about "inflation" is the discounting of promissory notes in the market because Federal Reserve notes are a "promissory" note. Ask your banker because a financial "note" is always a promise of payment (hence the term Federal Reserve note) In the market all promissory notes are discounted based upon the ability of the person to fulfill the promise made by the note. For example a secured promissory note, like a home mortgage that's secured by real estate, is discounted when it's transferred between lending institutions. Historically, because it's a secured note, the discount was about 4%. An unsecured note, such as credit card note, has been typically discounted up to around 50% because it can be hard for the holder of the note (e.g. a bank) to fulfill the note. When it comes to Federal Reserve notes we know that the Federal Reserve is not going to fulfill the promise of the note so it's discounted based upon the market where it requires about twenty-eight $50 Federal Reserve notes to fulfill the promise of redemption in one $50 American Gold Eagle coin. Effectively the Federal Reserve not has been discounted by 94.63% in the market related to all goods and services where Federal Reserve notes are used for the purchase. We call that "inflation" because the goods and services cost more but in fact it's the result of discounting of a promissory note by the market. I can still purchase the same amount or more, based upon the free market, if I use lawful money (American Eagle coins) based upon the exchange rate between gold (money) and other commodities.

    We call it inflation but in fact it is theft that's a the result of banking fraud where the Federal Reserve refuses to fulfill the promissory notes that it issues. If the Federal Reserve fulfilled the "promise" it makes in issuing Federal Reserve notes then a $50 Federal Reserve note would be worth 28-times as much, and you could purchase 28-times as more, today based upon the free market.
     
  16. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    The value of gold related to other commodities varies little over time. What does occur is that the relationship between Federal Reserve notes, that promise payment in gold coins (lawful money), varies significantly over time because the value of the Federal Reserve note on the market has been in a constant decline because the Federal Reserve will not redeem the notes it issues.
     
  17. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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  18. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    The value of gold should not be compared to the value of other commodities? Gold does it's own thing based on consumer demand. What drives consumer demand of gold? Investment? Perceived safe-haven? Speculation?
     

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