Hamas rockets reach Jerusalem and Tel Aviv

I came onto this topic to inform MG roadster that I could imagine bombs falling on my comfy European home. I could imagine it because it was told to me repeatedly by my grandparents and their friends when I was a boy. I also was told how having spent WW2 fighting the Nazis some of those veterans wondered if it was worth it when they were then attacked by Zionist's in Palestine. Please check out my first post, number 15 I think. It might be an unpalatable fact to you that those terrorists were Zionist's and they were duplicitous but never the less it is a historical fact.

Where do I make any reference to Zionist Jews?, I couldn't care less about the race or religion of Zioinist's. Perhaps to me the worse of all Zionist's are the Christians Zionist's who simply want the Temple on the Mount rebuilt so that the End Times can come. They are beneath contempt in my opinion.
I have nothing against Jews having a right to self determination, but it should not be done by an artificial construct, there should be one state in Palestine and Arab, Jew, Christian Atheist and Jedi! should live together in peace. And you can call it what you want, Israel by all means if that is what the majority wish. And if the Jews are the majority call it a Jewish state and if the Jedi's are in the majority call it a Jedi state. This is what the Northern Ireland peace accord works towards and I have alluded to this in several post's on several topics. Zionism insist's that the state must be Jewish for all time and in perpetuity. The leaders of the Zionist movement have constantly fought to engender a Jewish Nationlism amongst the Jews and for that Nationalism the people in Palestine/Israel are paying a terrible price.Arab, Jew and Christian. The Muslims and the Jews are not natural enemies and the people who inhabited the land in 1948 were most likely from the same stock as recent archaeological evidence would appear to show.

So I am addressing a specific issue that of Zionism when it separates people because of race or religion. Make no mistake about it I disagree with Zionism not Jews. Zionism is not a race, Zionism is at best a political movement and at worst an attempt to separate people by race and religion. Have not the Jews suffered enough without an ideology that tells them they must live apart, they cannot live with others. That is exactly what Zionism does.The rockets that are heading towards Tel Aviv and the bombs and missiles heading towards Gazza are the result of people thinking they are different because of race or religion and it sickens me. I dislike any extreme nationalism and I fought against the EDL in this country and Algerian fundamentalist's in Tunisia(long story), and I do mean fought, not with guns admittedly but good old fisticuffs

As I wrote earlier in this thread, I do not condone one rocket that Hamas fires, and I do not condone one missile fired by the IDF.

I have traveled extensively in North Africa and The ME by motorbike where you are really part of the places and people you travel through. And in my opinion there aint a figs leaf of difference between any of the people I met. 99% were welcoming and very friendly. What I would say to you Yetzerhara is that if you come into a conversation aggressively as you did, then expect to get an aggressive response. If you do not want it back do not dish it out.

Your allegations of anti-semitism do not bother me one jot, I know what I am, not you or the doctor you quote.

Still in the spirit of conciliation I will leave you with my favorite Jewish joke.

A Jew is driving through Derry on a dark country road, his car gets stopped by two men in balaclavas carrying guns, he is told to wind the window down. Then one man asks him in a broad Irish accent, "are you a Catholic or a Protestant?" "actually I am a Jewish Atheist" The gunman thinks about it for a minute and then replies "is that a Catholic or Protestant Jewish Atheist?!"

Goodnight and may your god go with you!

 

Freeman, I have read your other post's and I admit I have done you a disservice, you are quite correct your post's indicate you certainly do bother about civilian deaths. I apologise to you.

 

Go there a read since you probably missed it...

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=364361&p=1064071351#post1064071351

 

Larger rockets provide Hamas with the strategic psychological benefit of being able to regularly cause sirens to blare across Israel

 

RiaRaeb I will specifically address the following comments you made:

You stated: " I have nothing against Jews having a right to self determination, but it should not be done by an artificial construct, there should be one state in Palestine and Arab, Jew, Christian Atheist and Jedi! should live together in peace. "

Your statement is contradictory. You can clearly establish in the above words you do not think jews should be self determined. You want them in a state that is non Jewish.

Now there is where I find your opinion selective and discriminatory. For someone who claims he drove round the Middle East, how did you not notice all the Muslim states? What gives you the selective discriminatory belief that you see nothing wrong with Muslims having Muslim states but when Jews want a Jewish state, suddenly its not acceptable. Tell me why is it you do not hold Christians and Muslims to the same non religious state status you hold Jews? Do you write in on threads asking for the Vatican to disband as a Catholic State. Have you told Muslims to stop having Muslim states? Have you told england to stop referring to itself as an Anglican state?

Of course not Mod edit,,flounder,,,3 You hold Jews to a stateless standard you demand of no other people and you can dance around all you want trying to justify it but it discriminates against we Jews who choose to self determine ourselves as a state collective.

To tell a jew they must not have what all the others have means what other than you are just recycling the same stale attempt to put Jews in their place, or in this case a stateless place.

As well your belief that Jews should live in a state with Christians and Muslims is based on what? Only someone totally ignorant of how Jews were treated in the Middle East would suggest such a thing. For someone who claims to have travelled there you are quite remarkably ignorant of dhimmitude? I find it hard to believe you did not notice in Muslim states, Jews are not allowed to own land, vote, have the basic rights a Muslim does precisely because Sharia law does not distinguish state from religion.

The very reason there is a war against Israel in the Middle East is the very concept of the state and Muslim religion being one and the same for Muslims makes it psychologically and religiously impossible for them to live with any non Muslim as equals.

How you are oblivious to that I do not know. Go find out what its like to be a Christian, Bahaii, Jew, Buddist, Zoroastrean, Kurd, Assyrian, gay, feminist, trade unionist, Hindu, Siek living in a Muslim state before you lecture me or anyone else that they should live peacefully with Muslims in one nation. What a ridiculous thing to say.

You stated:

"This is what the Northern Ireland peace accord works towards and I have alluded to this in several post's on several topics."

Your reference makes zero sense. The Irish Republican Army felt Northern Ireland was a colonial creation imposed on it just as the Arab nations felt Israel was a colonial nation imposed on it.

The IRA wanted all of Northern Ireland back just as the Arab world continues to say about Israel.

Unlike the Arab terrorists, the IRA disarmed itself as a terrorist group and gave up the notion of wiping out and taking back Northern Ireland. No one asked Protestants in Northern Ireland to stop being a different state than in Ireland and to continue in their state to enshrine the rights of non Catholic Protestants.

Your analogy could not be more incorrect and in fact flies in the face of your arguement to try have Israel cease and exist.

You then stated:

"So I am addressing a specific issue that of Zionism when it separates people because of race or religion."

Zionism does not define Jews by race or Palestinians by race. Again you are as wrong as can be. Zionism is a political act of sufferage by Jews. It never defined anyone else and for that matter the definition of who a Jew is continues to change because the definition of who a Jew is is a fluid one not an absolute one. Muslims not Jews define themselves in a way that states Jews are infidel.Judaism does not define Muslims that way. Islam believes if you do not follow the word of Muhammed you are going to hell. So does Christianity only through Christ. Because of both those believes we Jews were subject to attacks from both continuously. No we Jews did not try convert anyone nor does our religion teach you and Muslims are going to hell.

In fact if you had been to Israel which you never were, you would know it provides all the rights to both Muslims and Christians in Israel today, that it is not allowed in Muslim states. You want to talk seperate? Arabs are treated in the same hospitals as Jews in Israel. They elect representatives in the Knesset and the constitution guarantees the government serve them in Arabic. The Supreme Court of Israel has upheld Muslim land rights repeatedly. Israel has had Muslim Judges, soldiers, and elected officials. Its Muslims enjoy the highest standard of living of any Muslim in the Middle East and choose to remain Israeli.

You want seperation? Go find out what happens in Syria, Iraq, what happens when you are of the wrong Muslim faction. Go find out what they have done to each other. Go find out what its like to live in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq or what it means to be a Kurd or Berber surrounded by Muslims. You live in a world that has no clue why Muslims live the way they do in their nations. It is their very lack of democratic institutions and history that enables corupt military dictatorships and those dictatorships do not hesitate to use Islamic law to subject people.

Go live in Saudi Arabia. Go on.

You stated:

"Zionism is at best a political movement and at worst an attempt to separate people by race and religion. "

Your comment again reflects your ignorance as to the concept of Zionism. Zionism was always a political movement and no one has ever doubted that except you. How "at best" is anyone a political movement. They are, or they are not.

Nothing in Zionism defines Jews or Muslims or Arabs or Jews as a race or anyone else as a race and nothing in Zionism seperates people of different ethnicities or religions. If that was the case there would be no Muslims or Christians or Bahaiis, or non Jews in Israel. Your comment makes zero sense.

You stated:

"I have traveled extensively in North Africa..."

Sure you have. The fact is you have never been to Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia.

I can only imagine where you think you travelled and what you selectively chose to saw.

Finally you stated:

"may your god go with you!"

Your very words suppose my God is not the same as yours. It also assumes I claim a God let alone one different than you.

One other thing. If there is a God I would never be so arrogant to expect it would go with me anywhere.

 

Well it is difficult to know where to start with the above rhetoric. Again you have chosen to use specific sentences that I have written, not contextualize them, ignore the parts that you were previously arguing that presumably you now feel you cannot argue, whilst not conceding this. Then you have thrown in a few new "facts" and continued to try to undermine my arguments with insults. Hopefully other posters will see what you are doing.

Lets start at the end, because I think that my simple saying "may your god go with you" and your response gives me a huge clue to the way you are responding and what I believe may well be a slight persecution complex. I will put in what I I wrote and your response.

Still in the spirit of conciliation I will leave you with my favorite Jewish joke.

A Jew is driving through Derry on a dark country road, his car gets stopped by two men in balaclavas carrying guns, he is told to wind the window down. Then one man asks him in a broad Irish accent, "are you a Catholic or a Protestant?" "actually I am a Jewish Atheist" The gunman thinks about it for a minute and then replies "is that a Catholic or Protestant Jewish Atheist?!"

Goodnight and may your god go with you!

Your response

Finally you stated:

"may your god go with you!"

Your very words suppose my God is not the same as yours. It also assumes I claim a God let alone one different than you.

One other thing. If there is a God I would never be so arrogant to expect it would go with me anywhere.

The above joke was one which I liked and I first heard it from a comedian called Dave Allen, he had a show which was very popular on Canadian TV. You, I presume from your profile live in Canada and as I would guess you are either about the same age as me or possibly a bit older(an assumption based on you telling me that your father flew Mosquito's in the Canadian air force and my father also being in the RAF at the time Mosquito's were in service) Dave Allen's tag line was famously "Goodnight and may your God go with you". It is a good line since Dave like myself was an atheist, the tradition Christian religious farewell and blessing of "god go with you" has been altered with the addition of "may your". In so doing it works on 2 levels, the first recognising that people have different Gods, and whatever god you worship let him be with you. If however you are an atheist like me then you will probably believe that God exist's only in the believer's head. Ether way it is designed to wish a person good night with a smile on his face. Nothing more and nothing less. But your response claiming that I am assuming your God is not the same as my god is a complete Non sequitur.

"May your God go with you" does not suppose, My god is not the same as your God.
You may not be so arrogant to expect that if there is a God he would go with anywhere, I on the other hand would be polite enough to hope that whatever your god is, he is with you to comfort you through the night!

What your reaction suggest's to me is that you are looking for meanings that are not there! Further you are perhaps looking for further ways to discredit me and therefore my arguments by suggesting I am a bigot and arrogant. Now maybe I am reading too much into it, but you have made several allegations against me which are both untrue and have also stated things about me as fact that are both wrong and which you cannot possibly know as fact. But more on this subject later...............

Next on to the travel bit,

"I have traveled extensively in North Africa..."

Sure you have. The fact is you have never been to Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia.

First you state this as fact please provide evidence to substantiate this claim. To help you I suggest you do not look on a map of North Africa for these countries. To help you further don't worry about looking for evidence in Israel, Syria, Iran, Iraq, or Yemen I have never visited these countries, but then again I never claimed I had!

From your comments about traveling I rather think you have not traveled much yourself, and if so, then not on a motorbike or backpacking. There would seem to be a different attitude to you when you are not in a car or coach. I do not know why, I think it is because there is no barrier between you and the people you see. You are not enclosed in your own little world. Most of the time you are meeting people, just people. And in my experience people are curious about you, the further away from Westenisation and the tourist trail, the greater this curiosity grows.I could go on and on about how great traveling is and how much it broadens the mind, and how different the countries are from what you see on the telly, how far from feeling restricted in Muslim countries and most other non western countries it is great to get away from H&S restrictions, planning permission speed camera's, helmets etc etc. Again most people are proud of their own country, they want to show it off to you along with their Homes, families and of course if they have one their motorbike. As a Welshman it depresses me to say with a bit of humour, the international language of football!. I can tell Welshman that if you want to explain your not English then just say Ryan Giggs. And rugby is throwball. Politics and religion are seldom discussed and being in another persons country I was not dumb enough to bring it up. I cannot help but wonder if the fact I visited Muslim and many other countries without feeling afraid, repressed or getting my self kidnapped is a bit disappointing for you. But I think the answer lies in the the statement below.

For someone who claims to have travelled there you are quite remarkably ignorant of dhimmitude?

Yes I am but since that is a neologism, and since most of the ME countries I visited where prior to or just around 1983, and the word didn't even exist until then. I would of been ignorant of the word, wouldn't I? I think dhimmitude is just a word used to propagate hatred of Islam.I can understand why some Zionists want to promote it though, anything that shows Muslims in a bad light must be very useful. I feel like others do it is probably a myth.

Right I have dealt with a couple of your assertions I shall deal with the others (specifically what appears to be your appalling lack of knowledge of Zionism and the Anglo-Irish peace agreement ) later.

Perhaps you might have a look at the different types of Zionism, Revisionist Zionism in particular.

Oh one last bit about travel, by 1973 Spain's tourism had grown to 34 million, how many returned talking about having visited the longest surviving Fascist state in Europe!

 

Right upwards and onwards Yetzerhara here is your bit about Northern Ireland I am in bold,

You stated:

This is what the Northern Ireland peace accord works towards and I have alluded to this in several post's on several topics."

Your reference makes zero sense. The Irish Republican Army felt Northern Ireland was a colonial creation imposed on it just as the Arab nations felt Israel was a colonial nation imposed on it.
Correct

The IRA wanted all of Northern Ireland back just as the Arab world continues to say about Israel.
2 in a row well done!
Unlike the Arab terrorists, the IRA disarmed itself as a terrorist group and gave up the notion of wiping out and taking back Northern Ireland. No one asked Protestants in Northern Ireland to stop being a different state than in Ireland and to continue in their state to enshrine the rights of non Catholic Protestants.
So close and then fell at the last hurdle, that is exactly what has happened, the Irish have changed their constitution and the British have succeeded sovereignty in the event of the majority in Ulster wish to join the rest of Ireland. I have tried to explain this to a Zionist before, what is it about democracy you cannot understand. Are you all like that? Our Queen, that's mine and yours literally has agreed to hand over Ulster if more people want to be in a united Ireland.
Your analogy could not be more incorrect and in fact flies in the face of your arguement to try have Israel cease and exist.[/I]
Well it would be, if it did, but it dosn't.

Only Zionism to go I will reply on that in the morning,

Good Night and........no.......... just have a good and peaceful night, no jokes, promise. You obviously are not a Dave Allen fan I wouldn't want to force my humour on any one.