Health care....Down Under

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Bush Lawyer, Dec 15, 2018.

  1. Bush Lawyer

    Bush Lawyer Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear...self respect. Huh? Do you only drive on privately funded roads?
     
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  2. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is a substantial difference, that you apparently dismiss. Roads can't be built privately for each person, and even those who don't drive benefit from the transport of goods. Some roads and things like special bridges we build as toll ways, so that those who use them the most are the primary source of paying for them. Things that cannot be done on the basis of individual choice are done by government. Healthcare can be done by individuals. The difference here is the question, are you paying for your own needs, or using someone else's money? It becomes a kind of welfare, and that can create a kind of social disease that encourages people to become dependent on other people's money.

    IF you buy insurance, you have chosen to participate in co-op, sharing of risk of the varying expenses so costs average out. That is choice. When you are taxed for something you don't want so that someone who doesn't want to pay benefits, then the system is re-distributing income, against the will of a substantial part of the people. IF I prefer to pay my own way in full, I still wind up paying somebody elses too. That is what is wrong with it, among other things.
     
  3. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    However an undiagnosed extramural bleed costs hundreds of thousands and it is better to put one hundred people through ED than miss an extramural

    Next time ask a professional

    See this is ALSO what the government does with the stats - it looks at costings. Recently they have defunded test strips for non insulin dependent diabetics because they can’t action one high glucose. It your BSL is up you cannot take extra meds all you can do is either wait or go for a run. It is cheaper and better to fund a three monthly HBA1C test. Also gets more overall compliance
     
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  4. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And having an overall healthier population DOES benefit society as a whole as the society is more productive,
     
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  5. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course it does. And if we all wore the same clothes. the cost of clothing would drop and we would all benefit. I'm all for strong people, because they build a stronger nation and everyone benefits. Why don't we just pass a law requiring people be strong? If everybody took care of just one person, the job would be 100% done and nobody would pay an unfair share. That way, you have as much as you want, or at least as much as you are willing to pay for, and nobody needs to steal it from you.

    By the way, a strong person MUST pay their own way, because the concept of being dependent, of using or living on other peoples money, is morally repulsive to them. All you need to do is consider how many people are doing their best to get someone else to pay their way, then count those who don't- they are the strong people. The rest are more parasitic; they need to suck the money out of other pockets so they don't have to be "responsible" for themselves.
     
  6. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    It would be far cheaper to let you die.

    No offense.
     
  7. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Nice idea, but the overall population isn't as productive as some parts of society.

    I'm in my 50s, so that means I'm far more productive than some teenager working at burger king. However, that teenager has a longer working life than I do. Do we take that into account? If so, how about we take into account how many years I've worked?

    Or better yet, how about we all agree that none of us are smart enough to figure all that crap out, and even if we could, who would care? When I was 30, I worked for what I could make, and things are no different now, except I make far more than I did then, but I can't go out after work and party all night like I used to.
     
  8. doombug

    doombug Well-Known Member

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    So the moral of the story is that Aussies do not yell "fore!" when golfing? What kind of commie country is it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
  9. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Really? And if they were a 30 year old man with a wife and three young kids our option is...... let them starve?

    So, if it is cheaper just to let people die - why have any health care at all?
     
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  10. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Nah!

    WE yell “Cooeee”
     
  11. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Look it is almost economic dogma that a healthier population is a more productive population

    https://siteresources.worldbank.org...aper_24_Population_Health_Economic_Growth.pdf
     
  12. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    lefties and their questions....

    Look, I used to try and answer them, but then I realized that you don't have any universal principle that might be used to provide a rebuttal in case I gave you a stupid answer.

    You're just asking me these questions because you can't believe I don't think exactly like you. Being able to think outside that box you've enveloped yourself in has made it impossible for you to provide any sort of argument for you position, so all you have are questions.

    hint: think outside the box.
     
  13. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Hint box is there for a reason

    Lots of people have - they have considered the alternatives and climbed back in the box.

    Why do you think the average Aussie and Brit and anyone with UHC will fight tooth and nail to keep it? Because we have seen what is happening in your country and want no part of that.
     
  14. Bush Lawyer

    Bush Lawyer Well-Known Member

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    The 18 year old who hit the ball and the older blokes he was playing with had no idea where he had hit it. Fact is, he hit it extremely high....they all lost sight of it and down it came on the very top of my unsuspecting left shoulder...immediate waves of nausea, and arse over I went.

    :)
     
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  15. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The problem is that you can't cancel the public insurance and stop paying for it if it gets crappy. Which means it will get crappy. Enjoy it while it works...
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  16. Bush Lawyer

    Bush Lawyer Well-Known Member

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    Been going well since the 1980s so I don't expect it will suddenly collapse. Everyone pays a 2% levy on their income tax. I doubt any Government here would elect to destroy what is going so effectively. It works. They'd never win an election, and if they did it while in Government, they'd be turfed. Our Health Care System is more precious to us than your guns are to you. How's the US health care thing going?
     
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  17. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    If the US could implement a US NHS for <£2300 a patient then it's a good idea.

    At the moment it cost over £7000 per patient, US health care system is broken.

    Obamacare was an insulting joke that at least made Obama rich with his back handers.

    I would create a system which offered basic health care services which competed $ for $ with UK NHS to replace medicare which people can pay into for cheap health care. Free to certain categories of people. Waiting lists would be long like they are in the UK.

    Then I would have an option to opt out and go private, also insurance companies would quickly cotton on to offering top up services to the basic system.

    All travellers would as part of their visa be charged a health care surcharge in advance to cover their potential cost.

    Until you can drop the gap from £7k to £2.3k it's just not feasible. This requires a new system, new hospitals, new doctors even and a whole new mentality before the US can take this leap.

    £2.3K is what the UK spends per person.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  18. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Downhill. I havn't had to work too much extra to buy stuff for strangers, but its more and more every year. I wanna know who can tell me how much is enough.
     
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  19. Bush Lawyer

    Bush Lawyer Well-Known Member

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    Yes....apply a flat levy on all income tax. Make that levy the right amount. 2% works here.
     
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  20. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Does the private health system pay for the full cost of the training of doctors and nurses through university? Does the private health system pay for the 24/7 on call auxiliary services?
     
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  21. Antiduopolist

    Antiduopolist Well-Known Member

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    Stick around...
     
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  22. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Would a private system pay $10,000 to fly you from a rural and remote location to a Tertiary hospital for more advanced care?
     
  23. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    There are a purple of major costs in your system that are driving averages up

    1) Pharmacy - you REALLY have to get a single buyer system to bring costs down
    2) itemised billing - we don’t - not even private care, well, not totally. There is a “per night” cost much like a hotel and most costs are absorbed in that - public is even less tempted to itemise bills - costs too much to have someone counting Panadol (Tylenol)
    3) Rationalised care. In the USA there is a tendency to admit older patients to ICU

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110413151627.htm

    In countries with UHC ICU in particular is often treated as a precious resource and allocated to those who both need it most and have the best outlook for a good quality of life. I have seen the difference between private and public and in a private system Gaga Grandpa is more likely to be admitted for a prolonged agonising death than they are in the public system. That does not mean we would NOT admit someone who had a good prospect to recover and have a good quality of life but those are the two overriding factors.
     
  24. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Yep!

    Definition of political death in Australia

    **** with the Universal Health Care System :p
     
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  25. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Meh!

    Ours is a two tier system and you can have private if you want - and NEVER go near the public
     

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