Heat wave over Greenland causing massive ice melt

Discussion in 'Science' started by DennisTate, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I am very aware it was a pandemic that spread from Asia to Europe. And it did kill people across both continents (as well as in North Africa).

    It appears to have originated in Central Asia, and migrated West either via the Mongols, the Silk Road, or both.

    But the effect in Asia was nowhere near as devastating it was in Europe, due to population density. In fact, all of Central Asia had a population in that era of around 12 million. That is smaller than the 17 million that lived in France alone in the same time period.

    In CHina, some areas were hit hard, especially Hubei province. But the region had already suffered through over a century of famine, and had already had it's population reduced significantly by both famines and other diseases (measles being one of the worst) in the decades prior to this one.

    We also know it hit the Middle East hard, with a total population loss of around 25%. And a total death rate in the region of around 1 million (the more heavily populated areas of modern Syria and the Gaza Strip were the hardest hit). A far cry from the 5 million lost in England alone. 25% loss in the area, almost 1/3 the percentage lost in much more densely populated Europe.

    Lower population, lower rate and area of disease spread. Isolated hunter-gatherers and herdsmen have little contact with outsiders, so much less chance to contract the disease in the first place. This is very different than the conditions of Europe. And stand by, here we have some science content coming.

    The biggest reservoir of diseases appear to keep appearing in China. Higher population densities combined with rainforest and very primitive areas are the perfect incubator for various diseases. We now know that yersinia pestis first evolved over 6,000 years ago, and of the 4 major outbreaks of the disease, every one has been traced back to China.

    It also can present itself in 1 of 3 different ways, each time being unique to the outbreak. The Pneumonic is one of the most well known, and this was the Black Death of the 14th century. But there is also the Bubonic Plague (large boils), which is what the Plague of Justinian, as well as the Second Plague which came on the heels of the Black Death.

    Then finally you have the septicemic plague, which is basically an infection of the blood. This was especially seen in the last days of the Black Death.

    But yea, continue to tell yourself that.
     
  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Irrelevant.

    Should I also throw in the fall of the Mississippian Culture as well?

    This is the thing, I do not try to tie in every single event into things like Global Warming. Doing so is an exercise in madness I believe. Might as well then start to throw in the rise of neolithic farming and the creation of canals in changing the balance of greenhouse gasses.

    Populations have always risen and fallen. We have seen entire cultures rise up, flourish, then disappear over and over again. Some live on as legends and ruins, others have almost completely vanished so much that almost no record of them can even be found.
     
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  3. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This may sound strange.......
    but President Trump's idea to purchase Greenland for America.........
    may be the best way to get this initiated...... .considering the context:


    Responding to a BEAR market vs a Bull market?

    The context of our situation as explained by CIA economist Mr. Jim Rickards is
    the very real possibility of a ONE HUNDRED TRILLION DOLLAR MELTDOWN in the seven hundred and ten trillion dollar DERIVATIVES MARKET...................
    (that was the magnitude of the whole thing as of 2014 as verified in this forty six minute interview);

    FORGET IRAN, IRAQ, UKRAINE
    THIS IS WHERE WWIII STARTS...



    Oh..... the simplest explanation for anybody to look at to understand
    the words Malthusian or Neo-Malthusian is an error made by then P. M. Pierre E. Trudeau back in 1974...... and we need to take a look at the possible Why he would do something so clearly unwise / unethical??????


    Did P. M. Pierre E. Trudeau save the world environment?

    Does deliberately slowing down the economy tend to save the environment?

    1. No
      1 vote(s)
      50.0%
    2. *
      Yes
      1 vote(s)
      50.0%

    3. I suppose it would suppose on how the economy is slowed...
      0 vote(s)
      0.0%
    Change Your Vote

     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  4. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Israel's desalination not that big a production. The heat wave over Greenland has been melting the glaciers since 1986.

    What are you doing with this half baked stuff?
     
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  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Personally.... I am attempting to set up a possible response to what sure looks like an impending BEAR MARKET?????

    Of course I am no expert.........

    Responding to a BEAR market vs a Bull market?

     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  6. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    1. Sólheimajökull Glacier in Iceland is Melting due to Global ...
      https://www.arcanum.is/arcanum-blog/posts/2017/january/solheimajokull-glacier-is-melting
      Sólheimajökull Glacier is Melting. Melting glaciers are one of the most visible signs of climate change. In Iceland about 11 billion tons of glacial ice melt due to global warming every year. Human influence, the greenhouse effect, gas emissions and aerosols, new studies say, are the main perpetrators.

    2. Iceland Thaws: The Glaciers Are Melting - What Does It ...
      https://grapevine.is/mag/feature/2019/01/31/on-thin-ice-the-glaciers-are-melting-what...
      Jan 31, 2019 · Iceland has 269 named glaciers, from the vast ice cap of Vatnajökull with its many tongues and outlets, to the towering, famously volcanic Eyjafjallajökull overlooking the south coast, and the much-admired snow-hooded Snæfellsjökull, perched on the western Snæefellsnes peninsula.
     
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  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    YES..... what is happening in Iceland is highly relevant as well.

    Here is what has saved our coastal communities and cities so far:
    Here is a recent update:

    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddar...ns-of-antarctic-ice-sheet-greater-than-losses

    But..... the addition of H2O to Antarctica is unlikely to save us for much longer...... one of the conclusions that I came to when I was shown about this is that a Carbon Tax is like a joke played on a terribly under-informed audience!

    A Carbon Tax applied all across Canada, in my opinion, would do very, very little, almost nothing to protect the vulnerable real estate along the Bay of Fundy from the threat of rising ocean levels.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Global warming has to do with what is going on with the globe, NOT some localized area even if it is as large as Europe.

    Yes, pretty much everything in nature is affected by and contributes to cycles of various kinds.

    Suggesting cycles can be ignored is absolutely ridiculous. Many cycles are known to have made significant differences for those living on earth.
     
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  9. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    I find it particularly fascinating in that this very thing is being said over Greenland.

    In the 10th Century, Eric the Red founded Brattahlid, a farming community in Southern Greenland. Not only was it his personal estate, his family and descendants lived there until the 15th century. It was a very green area, with an almost year-round harbor, and vast areas of farmland and vineyards.

    But all that came to an end by the 15th century. Starting in the 1300s, the climate started to cool again with the Little Ice Age, and the harbor started to ice up for more and more of the year. Finally by around 1450 the entire colony was abandoned. Along with all other Norse colonies on the island. Including Garoar, the seat of the first Bishop in what would become the "New World". Seated from 1113 until 1377, the diocese was ultimately abandoned and the community left to return to Iceland or Europe.

    These are cycles, they have happened before and will happen again.
     
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  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Are you suggesting scientists all over the world aren't aware of that?

    Or, what?
     
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  11. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I personally am suggesting that scientists......
    can be motivated by money and can be lazy..... and can lack courage just like the rest of us.

    Once Al Gore made his sale of the basic idea of a Carbon Tax many
    scientists lacked the courage needed to keep on suggesting other solutions......
    such as mega-scale desalination of ocean water for agriculture.....

    Scientists are human and their careers can depend on their being significantly politically correct.

    I am of the opinion that the wealthiest people who are so enthusiastic about a Carbon Tax in some form
    were significantly interested in it for other reasons than improving the environment.
     
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  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, that doesn't work in science, as findings in science have to be duplicated by others and crosschecked by reviewers before they can be published.

    Fake or sloppy science is how scientists lose their jobs. And, science is designed to identify that. The whole practice of science is designed to eliminate false ideas as fast as possible.

    In climatology specifically, the conspiracy would have to be gigantic - crossing public and private lines both here and throughout the entire world. Plus, it would have to cross lines to numerous branches of science. One of the problems a conspiracy of this magnitude faces is that there is no way for one branch to even know how to match the findings of some other branch of science. If some overlord came up with a result they wanted, they would have to reverse engineer it into all branches of science and broadcast the demanded results to scientists all over the world - and in secret. That is NOT going to happen. Science rewards those who publish truth.

    Gore is NOT a scientist - he's a politician. Scientists didn't change what they were saying to match Gore. Gore's mistake was that he projected worst case scenarios. He thought that was necessary to get people to start watching climate change. Unfortunately, worst case scenarios are cases that WON'T happen - they are right at the edge of not being possible. So, his statements didn't match what was actually found - which were not worse cases, obviously. Don't tell me more about Gore without explaining how he even matters.

    There really aren't many scientists who are working on finding solutions. In general, science analyzes the situation. Engineers figure out solutions. And, politicians choose solutions.

    Your favorite idea isn't gaining traction for very real reasons of engineering, informed by science.
     
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  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Oh nonsense. It is well known that Peer Review can be easily manipulated. Especially if they want to all come to the same conclusion.

    Lots of "peer reviewed" papers have later been proven false. In fact, we have even had cases of completely fake papers being "peer reviewed" and passed.

    And it can even be reversed. Peer reviewed papers rejected the first reports of Dr. Jenner's smallpox vaccine.

    Peer review can mean absolutely nothing. And more and more lately have been questioning it, even among the "peer review" elite.

    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/342/6154/60
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't change anything I said. As humans, mistakes get made.

    The point is that science is designed to ferret out these errors and correct them as fast as possible.

    And, yes. The system itself is under constant review to tighten it up.

    This has been especially true in studies that involve human behavior.

    If you have a superior methodology, or even just fixes to scientific method or review processes, you should promote them.
     
  15. Nonnie

    Nonnie Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But.... AboveAlpha's theory on the methane being released from the Arctic permafrost does sound logical to me??????

    Is this analysis of the probable long term effects of climate change logical?
     
  17. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    According to SCIENCE, this is unpossible!

    Big U-turn: Key melting Greenland glacier is growing again


    WASHINGTON (AP) — A major Greenland glacier that was one of the fastest shrinking ice and snow masses on Earth is growing again, a new NASA study finds.

    The Jakobshavn (YA-cob-shawv-en) glacier around 2012 was retreating about 1.8 miles (3 kilometers) and thinning nearly 130 feet (almost 40 meters) annually. But it started growing again at about the same rate in the past two years, according to a study in Monday’s Nature Geoscience .
     
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  18. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    Stop making up bs claims. Natural variation is expected. But you have to make a little effort to understand the subject so don't expect to get it.
     
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  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That ignores the factors that are changing sea level rise today. Note that the scale on the charts on your site doesn't allow for identifying current trends.

    Let's remember that the median sea level rise for the remainder of this century is about 6 feet, though there are certainly models that would strongly suggest a higher median by that time.

    And, the average elevation of Florida is ... 6 feet.
     
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  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is certainly good news! Thank you for this link!

     
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  21. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    So it is not growing?
     
  22. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    I said natural variation is expected. Is that too complicated for you?
     
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  23. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    not in 2020, its shrinking again.
     
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  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    *laughs*

    Detection of sarcasm fail I see.

    Of course there is going to be natural variation. But what I find most amazing in those that scream the sky is falling, things such as that never seem to appear. There are a great many volcanic incidents in the last 100 years, which had great effects short term (2-5 years) on the climate. Yet, miraculously these never seem to appear on their charts.

    And I have looked. Historic winters, volcanoes around the world, things like this and the charts are amazingly flat. Almost like they are just picking the data they want to see, and ignoring anything outside of the results they want.

    And for those that do not get it, of course in general the ice caps are shrinking. They have been doing so for over 35,000 years now! I always wonder at the intelligence of people that do not realize that we are still technically in the tail end of a global Ice Age, and of course they are shrinking. They will continue to shrink, that is how Ice Age Cycles work. And after 3-10,000 years of almost no glaciers at all, they will start to grow again.

    Fast forward around 20,000 years from now, you will once again have glaciers creeping down from Canada and northern Europe, and San Francisco Bay will once again be a river valley 20 miles from the shore, and you will be able once again to walk from Europe to England and Ireland.

    Expecting the world to remain static and to never change is moronic. Screaming that humans are causing it when these cycles have been occurring for hundreds of millions of years is even more moronic. We have had more than a dozen of these cycles in the last 3 million years, and in almost every single one the interglacial periods was much warmer than it is now.

    Hell, the oldest and largest ice sheet in the world (Antarctic) is only about 45 million years old. That means the dinosaurs had been gone for over 20 million years before it even started. And it is accepted that prior to that, glaciations were rare events that other than the 1-2 times we had a "snowball Earth" do not seem to appear on the geological record. We have even recovered fossils of dinosaurs with unique adaptations which shoed they evolved on Antarctica (then resting roughly between where it is now and Australia), with huge eye sockets (for large eyes to see in the long polar winter nights), and large brows above them (to provide screening during the long polar summer days). That shows millions of millions of years of evolutionary adaptation, in an area that was snow and ice free.

    And we know that on a planetary level, we are still well below the average temperature our planet has known. "permanent ice sheets" like Greenland are an aberration on our planet, not the norm. But stupid people do not know that it seems, they think what they see now is the norm, and any change from that is wrong. Hell, even the Greenland Ice Sheet was significantly smaller 10 mya. It only started to really grow to what it is today after 2 upthrust events 10 and 5 mya.
     
  25. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And it will grow again, and it will shrink again. But shrink more than grow, until the next Ice Age.

    Is this to complex of a topic to understand?
     

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