Hello from North Virginia!

Discussion in 'New Member Introductions' started by Herbert1862, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. Herbert1862

    Herbert1862 New Member

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    Hi! I'm coming to you from Fairfax, Virginia (mostly because everybody I know is sick of talking politics with me). As my signature indicates, I consider myself a left-libertarian (as seen in my shiny signature); a summary of what that means would likely be beyond the scope of this post, but it includes things like a universal basic income, a privatized school system, getting rid of the minimum wage, loosening copyright laws, reducing FDA certification times, and similarly esoteric issues. I hope to contribute to the general discussion here for a while to come.
     
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  2. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Welcome, Herbert! I've belonged to a lot of forums over the years, and as a newcomer, I'll tell you that I'm really enjoying this one. It's more heavily moderated than I'm used to, but it does serve a purpose, so it's not worth complaining about.
     
  3. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Welcome! I temporarily live in Arlington VA until I'm off orders, then I'll move back home to Mass. I like northern VA. I was in Fairfax last weekend. I went to what I thought was a quiet Irish pub near George Mason, but turned out to be a crazy college bar. Still had fun though
     
  4. Maccabee

    Maccabee Well-Known Member

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    Shalom and welcome to the forum. :)
     
  5. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hallo, Herbert! Herzlich willkommen im Forum!:handshake:
     
  6. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Welcome. Your idea of "universal basic income" is appealing. I work very hard and have many years of good health and productiveness ahead of me.

    But I've been wanting to drop out of the workforce, sit around the house, and have fun with no responsibilities. How much will your plan pay me?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
  7. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Hi Herbert1862, I agree with Greataxe above about universal basic wage. It sounds lovely.
    Why do you want a privatised school system? Would there still be a state system as well?
    And, welcome.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
  8. Publius_Bob

    Publius_Bob Active Member

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    Welcome Herbert 1862. My goal is listen more and judge less. I don't identify with the left or right. I identify with having a government of laws and support the laws in the U.S. Constitution. That's the greatest form of government ever devised by man even though it still has flaws.

    The universal basic income should be zero. People should work and get paid for what they're worth. They should budget and spend accordingly. If they are unable to work, they should be taken care of by their family, friends, and local communities. Minimum wage should be zero. It's unlikely that anyone would work for zero, but not impossible. Wages should be a contract between employer and employee. Wages should be determined by supply and demand.

    Copyright and her big brothers, Trademark and Patent, play a role in creation and innovation. The creator and innovator should be entitled to market supported compensation for their contributions.
     
  9. Herbert1862

    Herbert1862 New Member

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    About 16,800 dollars a year; a bit more than minimum wage, really, so not too terribly much. It would be paid for by getting rid of the public school system, getting rid of social security, and increasing taxes by 20% (before paying people the 16,800 dollars, mind); the 'getting rid of social security' part is optional, but recommended. The point of it is less 'People don't have to work!' and more 'People don't have to starve to death if they're unemployed, and the middle class pays way less in taxes!'. Under some definitions it would actually be considered a 'universal partial income'. You could have a 27,200 dollar universal basic income if you instead increased taxes by 40% before subtracting out the universal payment, and I've seen that proposed, but it seems a bit excessive.

    Just for a bit of the math involved, someone currently earning 50,000 dollars a year and paying 8,270 dollars a year in taxes would instead by paying 1,500 dollars a year, someone earning minimum wage would earn about twice as much, and someone earning nothing would earn as someone who's currently earning minimum wage.

    In my ideal world we would halve the size of our active military in order to only have a 10% tax-increase-before-paying-people, but that would require a slightly more... stable, global climate, than the one we currently posesss.

    The current public school system is terrible, inefficient, and inefficiently terrible. All parents of children, under the above universal system, would get 16,800 dollars a year per child; the average private school costs around 10,000 dollars a year, so parents would pay for their childrens' schooling out of their childrens' 'income'. All current public schools would be steadily converted into private schools.

    That philosophy only works until automation puts you and your entire community out of work (see- the Rust Belt). I agree with you that minimum wage ought to be zero, but only if there's a universal basic income: you can have a minimum wage without a universal basic income, or you can have a universal basic income without a minimum wage (and the later is vastly more efficient economically, placing the burden on people with seven yachts instead of on the average consumer), but lacking both almost inevitably leads to horrendous human rights abuses.

    Copyright laws are fine short term, but in the long term they stifle free speech and innovation. As a general rule, I support copyrights lasting twenty years, at the most, and I support 'intangible' copyrights (of things like games, music, books, et cetera) only lasting a decade. I'm mostly just opposed to those ridiculous 'The song you came out with yesterday vaguely resembles a song my grandfather wrote seventy years ago!' lawsuits.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  10. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So in your fantasy utopia, anyone could do nothing and get $16,800 a year. You also said kids would be given the same amount---assuming it would be used for education.

    Is healthcare also free, Section 8 housing, cellphones, heating oil---does that stay or go?

    So----what incentive is there for young, lazy people to even stay in high school?

    How many freeloaders and refugees could your utopia support before it goes into default?

    Do you have any military experience to back your ideas on cutting back?
     
  11. Publius_Bob

    Publius_Bob Active Member

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    One big happy collective...

    Free weed too or do you have to purchase that from the government weed barn using your allowance from Uncle Sam?
     
  12. Herbert1862

    Herbert1862 New Member

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    No. Part of the point of having a universal basic income is that you don't need universal housing or cellphones or healthcare or college in order to avoid people dying in the streets. Most people, one should note, do not aspire to be frycooks and other minimum wage laborers; this is because of the 'minimum wage' part even moreso than the 'labor' part, in my personal experience. If someone would not currently be satisfied with a minimum wage salary, they would presumably also be unsatisfied with a minimum wage salary given to them by the government. 16,800 dollars is 'I'm barely surviving' terrtitory, not 'I'm happy with my life' territory. If someone really hates working enough that they'd be perfectly content in deep poverty, they probably wouldn't be a terribly good employee anyways.

    Half the reason people stay in school in the first place is because of social pressure; people aren't going to stop saying things like 'You're wasting your potential' or 'You're going to be a deadbeat for the rest of your life!' because people now have the option of being unemployed without starving to death on the streets. Most people don't go to college because they want to avoid starving on the streets, they don't go to college because they want to be successful.

    I don't, in fact, have any military experience, but saying you need experience working in a particular government sector before proposing changes to that sector would disqualify basically every President in recent history from office.

    "President Bush, you want to change the tax rate? You've never worked in the IRS! Clearly you're not qualified to make that decision!"
    "President Obama, you want to fund the EPA? You've never been a climate change scientist working for the EPA! Clearly you're not qualified to make that decision!"
    "President Trump, you want to be President? You've never worked in the government before! Clearly you're not qualified for that position!"

    It's a suspicious sort of argument.

    P.S. You wouldn't 'assume' that it would go towards education and food and clothing and so forth, you would conduct random inspections.

    If people want to spend money that would otherwise go towards food on drugs, that's there decision on the free market. And it would be going towards food and shelter, otherwise; 16,800 dollars a year does not give you spending money if you aren't otherwise employed. It's a big help for people who are otherwise employed, but you're going to be deep in poverty if you're living off of it and it alone, unless you live in rural Montana or something.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  13. Ole Ole

    Ole Ole Banned

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    Liberal are not best politcians yet.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  14. Ole Ole

    Ole Ole Banned

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    I have this year 4300 dollar in investion after sunday my third Money this year....1300 dollar per month at least....
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  15. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Hi Herbert1862, I have noticed that Conservatives often think that stuff can be done better by the private sector. I'm not sure that this stacks up. The private school system is geared toward making money. Education of children is not the primary consideration. Private health care is a glaring example of how health care for poor and underprivileged people miss out.
    There are some functions and responsibilities of government which should not be dealt out to moneymakers.
     
  16. Publius_Bob

    Publius_Bob Active Member

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    There you have it. People who are gifted a free universal income of $16,800 from the government of the tax paying producers still live in deep poverty if they're "living off of it and it alone." They can't win because their government is always there to bail them out of the weed barn.
     
  17. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are vague.

    So the $16,800 only goes to those who are employed? And those who can work, but won't---do they get the money or get nothing?

    Does the $16.800 go to each school age child even if the parents don't work?

    I don't think all your inspections to make sure the money is used for the child's education would keep it honest.

    In fact, your whole scheme is ridiculous, as the instant you begin taking away heating oil, Section 8 housing and food stamps----you'd be labeled as a heartless Nazi and burned at the stake.
     
  18. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Really, what is there address?
     
  19. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    you left out usung the poor for canon fodder.
     
  20. Herbert1862

    Herbert1862 New Member

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    It goes to everyone, people who can work but won't still get it, and yes, it would still go to the children of people who don't work (though they would presumably have a higher rate of inspections). You don't necessarily have to get rid of section 8 housing and food stamps for this 'scheme', unless I missed something and those are part of social security; I did the calculations and getting rid of food-stamps would only up the amount the government could give to 17,000 dollars, which isn't really worth 'getting labeled as a heartless Nazi', as you put it.

    People are generally pretty averse to doing illegal things, believe it or not, particularly when those illegal things can get them thrown in prison. Some people would probably get away with having a bunch of children and living off of them, but there would presumably be a higher rate of random inspections for poor people with more children.

    I'm not denying that my political preferences are unrealistic in the current political climate, but you never know what the future will bring.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean. An average unemployed person would get 16,800 dollars more than they would be likely to get otherwise under a Universal Basic Income, as proposed. If they were earning what would currently be minimum wage, they'd be earning around 32,000 dollars a year. They'd also (assuming their children are sent to an average-cost school) have around 5,000 more dollars per year per child to pay for food and clothing and insurance and such.

    Yes, they'll still be in poverty, but they aren't starving on the streets in this scenario. I consider not having people starving on the streets a very solid benefit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  21. Publius_Bob

    Publius_Bob Active Member

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    Take the federal government out of the equation of helping the poor and give that responsibility back to families, friends, churches, charitable organizations, towns, cities, counties, and states where it belongs.

    Having the federal government mismanage a universal basic income program providing $16,800 per person to all U.S. Citizens while still providing that laundry list of freebies is pure socialist income redistribution.

    Show us your calculations...
     
  22. Ole Ole

    Ole Ole Banned

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    Great news. 1862s are not Liberal.
     
  23. Ole Ole

    Ole Ole Banned

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    Conservative Liberals want Communism in America how is stupidify against nationalists in America.

    10 or 20 percent Whites are Racist in America yet.

    :beer:
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017

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