"Higher Education: Europe vs. USA"

Discussion in 'Education' started by LafayetteBis, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    Secondary-schooling ends in high-school.

    Yes, Germany is very-good at bringing its youth into "apprenticeship programs". Those graduating (about 95%) are employed and employed!

    But these are considered as Tertiary Education programs and accounted for accordingly. Nonetheless, Germany is not doing as well as it should, as shown here: Percentage of 25 to 64 year olds with tertiary level educaton.

    It can and should do better ...
     
  2. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    Moving right along ...
     
  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    Isn't that more or less the case?

    Testing is perhaps a necessity but it is by no-means definitive. Many people simply have a difficult time deciding what they want to do with life. So they join the DoD, and if they don't get killed they do have a more sober understanding of their qualities. (Because surely there is some superior gruff enough to tell them.)

    The best test is trying, and failing downwards but not into hell. That is, you try at the highest level, and if it does not work to one's satisfaction, they get another chance at a lower level.

    However, such is a costly-process. But less costly than the effing-$564B that we spend on our Boyz 'n Girlz in khaki defending ourselves from only God-knows-what.

    The cheapest cost of putting a child through post-secondary schooling for:
    -Vocational certificate studies (1 year) @ $10K).
    -Associates Degree (2 years @ 10K per year)
    -Bachelors Degree (4 years@ 10K per year)

    Any of the above programs, if effectively passed, confer upon the individual a start in life far better than the armed-forces. (Unless, in the armed-forces, for instance, they learn something useful. Like piloting an airplane/helicopter, or even a drone).

    From the Rand Corporation, here:
    C'mon - is $10/20K (or thereabouts) annually too expensive to give our poor's children a chance to dig themselves out of a hole for which they are not the least bit responsible for having been born in it?

    Methinks not. For a two-year degree, that amount represents a whopping-figure of $30/40K ...

    Post Scriptum: I live in France, where it costs 800€ a year (multiply by 1.06 to get dollars) for tuition to a state post-secondary school. America has not yet understood the meaning of a Social Democracy! (And, if the course is vocational training - six-months to a year - the cost is nothing.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  4. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Wow, it took 4 months to craft that reply? And it wasn't even any good.
     
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  5. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    "E" for effort? ;-)
     
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  6. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I have this silly idea, common when my father and uncles and mother and aunts went to High School its called a Vocational Track you know its funny to think about you focus most of the education on learning to be employed when you get out both general courses and employment skill set specific usually in the upper end. See you decide the bare minimum of courses outside of employment based and have maybe a quarter of the units those for example in the basics like civics and English why not a year applicable to the workplace over term papers. Science a two course overview is enough. And then the rest of the time general courses applicable to the general workplace, industry more specific and lots of job related hands on and classroom courses for at least a type of work and specific certifications. Its stupid if only 20% of students are likely college material to not track them into Academic High Schools and then the rest employment education is far better. And the bottom performers should get less than this why not for low IQ people and yes some disabled persons shouldn't even go to High School maybe a year or two of employment training or something if they seem motivated but why waste more than of eight years of education on someone not likely to benefit its a waste of money and time.

    Sorry but for me the biggest issue is not accepting peoples limits a person with an IQ of 70 isn't going to college and might not benefit from High School fully and the top most motivated students who have the skills should go to college and yes it should be affordable. And I don't care if some average Joe is good at football I would ban sports scholarships and insist students get into college at least a public one based on likelihood of graduating. The rest should get top notch employment tracked education, demanding and training people to be flexible re-trainable and trainable workers for the labor force.
     
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  7. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Newly Registered

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    The military offers a substantially better option over traditional education because it encompasses everything in life.

    A poor kid goes to college and there's very little he learns in regards to life. The military teaches you everything-from how to tie a tie to financial management-that forms the bedrock of your social status. Not to mention that it's like joining a giant fraternity.

    If I was looking to hire someone, the college grads would all have their resumes end up in the trash. I don't run an adult daycare, and prefer men who can accomplish tasks with little to no supervision.
     
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  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    Having people tell you what to do and obeying automatically commands "encompasses everything in life"? Not in my book and not by a long-shot.

    The ultimate freedom is the ability to choose knowingly amongst various options and try to succeed. If you don't, try again.

    There is no military organization on earth that allows you that freedom. In fact, "freedom of action" is anathema in any military organization with a command-structure.

    To an extent, any organization imposes a "command-structure" to some extent, but if you don't like to do what your manager tells you is your job-objective, then you can always walk away and find other work. At least there is an ability to negotiate (though constrained in context) ...
     
  9. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    Oh, come off it. They learn how to cope in various situations based upon the education/training that they have obtained.

    Your telling me that education is not a necessity, and I am telling you that if one wants to succeed in life professionally, they would do best to study and obtain a degree. Earnings determine more or less (if not happiness) at least a level of well-being for one and their family, and the key to success is education in a country that is entering the Information Age.

    To wit:
    [​IMG]

    Beyond just earnings, education also greases the wheels of any civilized society. But, that is a matter on an entirely different level ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  10. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Newly Registered

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    Median earnings are completely worthless.

    According to median earnings not a single American family lives in poverty, yet here we are spending a trillion dollars a year on anti poverty programs.

    The military teaches you how to succeed in society and the absolute basic skills for success, foremost among them management.

    I'm 28 years old, dropped out of high school, and have 3 YEARS of senior corporate management on my resume. I ran the entirety of operations for a regimental level unit(which is normally 1,200 men), to include training, certification, logistics, and securing training sites. Coordinated with numerous government agencies, dozens of civilian contractors, and handled a $5 million annual budget.

    That led me to sit on the local chapter boards of 4 major, nationally recognized non profits, and half a dozen civic/government organizations.

    Which moves us to the real question of economic benefit. Does a company hire a 20 something college graduate with zero experience beyond getting coffee for the office, or a man who has proven himself to get **** done and handle monumental responsibility?

    My local veterans club has about 30-40 members who work for Microsoft and it's contractors. The manager who brought them all in was pretty much begging me to take a 6 week course on computers/coding so he could hire me on as middle management. A college degree doesn't mean a *******n thing.
     
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  11. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    A college degree can be essential for less assertive people than yourself. What worked for you will not necessarily work for everyone.
     
  12. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    What is worthless is your above comment because you are ignorant of the existing factual data regarding poverty.

    Keep you personal history references to yourself - they are worthless on the national level. You are living in a vacuum ...
     
  13. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    PLUTOCRACY

    What can you do? Some people here think that what's happened to them has happened to the world around them as well. Otherwise known as Economic Myopia, which is well worth discussing in this "Economics forum".

    Such naiveness has encapsulated American thinking as regards poverty for most of the past century. Which is why, compared to a fair Social Democracy, what we have in the US effectively (as seen by factual historical data) is a PLUTOCRACY* - largely effected by the manipulation of electoral rules since the 12th Amendment passed in 1804 and gerrymandering that was first employed in Massachusetts in 1812.

    So, this form of "voting maliciousness" goes back a long, long time - in fact to the very beginning of the nation and has plagued us ever since.

    And, still, Americans think theirs is the Greatest Democracy on Earth. Wakey, wakey ...

    *Plutocracy = Government by the wealthy, a controlling class of the wealthy
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 1:09 AM
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  14. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    More brainless one-liner sarcasm from a twit.

    See? I can do that too ... !
     
  15. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    You wanted more affordable college in the USA they should never have done the student loan system, we used to have excellent and largely affordable public colleges that were solid schools maybe not the prettiest or had tons of frills compared to the private colleges but they generally got the job done at a cost largely born by State taxpayers. This changed with free money being added into the system if you give businesses and colleges are businesses more money without controls on cost increases the government would allow in these amounts why wouldn't many of these schools ,once very inexpensive, take the money raising tuition and housing costs to add tons of frills to their campuses? The University of Ohio's campus should not try or ever tried to compete with Yale the second they decided to the costs for tuition and other things would shoot up and much unrelated to academics or the higher goals of teaching student-scholars and training them to be leaders of society based on a sound education to benefit Ohio in this example.
     
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  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Just not as well. You still had to take way to much time to craft that beauty.
     
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yeah, so why don't we apply the same yardstick to the DoD, that's swallowing whole 54% of our National Discretionary Budget!

    Education is NOT a higher priority than Defense at a time when there is NO WAR!?!

    The lack of sufficient education is the reason we are providing H1-B permits to foreigners enticing them to come work in the US? The US issues 65,000 such permits annually. They all fill jobs that a nation like the US should not need be filled by "foreign help".

    Not if we knew how to put our own people through the necessary schooling and it did not cost an arm and a leg ...

    Other countries are supporting the costs of Tertiary Education. If we are such a rich-country then why cannot we do the same ... ?
     
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  18. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    WHAT IS THE PERCENT OF TOTAL EDUCATION COST THAT THE STUDENT CARRIES?

    For an idea of the Individual Cost (to students) of a Tertiary Education go to this link: OECD: Education at a glance.

    There are three columns of data, and the most pertinent is the third, "Share of private expenditure". Select "Share of private expenditure" to see the percentage each students pay of the total by country.

    Note that in the Nordic countries of the EU, the student's share of tertiary-education cost is in the single-digit percentages of the total. But not in the US, which is at a whopping 33%. Which is not the highest in the list, which is that of Chile. But it is one of the only 3/4 countries where the cost is a third or more.

    Is this sort of achievement that "makes American great!"

    Methinks not ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017 at 3:04 PM
  19. Merwen

    Merwen Well-Known Member

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    IMO too many of our wealthiest have become accustomed to overly simple, society-destroying ways to increase their wealth.
     
  20. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    My argument stands you give out tons of money to state and private schools they will jack up prices to get more money like any other business, State Schools used to be affordable for typical working class people if the children could get into the school, my uncle left medical school through the University of Wisconsin system with $1500 in debt in 1950 to a bank. His family helped and he worked summers and that paid the rest. So what happened the Federal Government handing out money and the States reducing funding a lot since the loans were there, stepping on average people. Simple.
     
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