Hitler Wouldn’t Risk Doomsday, But The United States Did

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Striped Horse, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Someone who still believes the fairy tale of the need for both bombs to drop bombs, because otherwise it would have cost hundreds of thousands of US victims to land in Japan?

    You know, that under Roosevelt the US called on the USSR to deal promptly with Japan after the defeat ... Stalin complied when Germany capitulated and sent more than 1 million soldiers and 5,000 tanks to the East and so on Americans were not alone?
     
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  2. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    That's one view I guess Apacherat. It's not one I agree with though. Some may have been useful idiots, others considered US foreign policy to be horribly flawed. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about this.
     
  3. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    There was no guarantee that Russia would attack. Even when it did, Russia lacked the resources for a proper amphibious assault on Japan. At best it could have made limited landings, so any invasion would be left to the Americans & British (and Australians). That is assuming Stalin even decided to attack Japan directly. It was not clear to Allied leaders that he would. In short, it was not at all clear that Russian intervention would speed up the Japanese surrender. We know now that it did, but that was not knowable at the time.

    As pointed out, for a nation that we are being told was just looking for a reason to surrender, Japan didn't surrender after the first atomic bomb. This might suggest to an astute observer that the 'feelers' being put out for peace either weren't that serious or didn't come from people in a position to actually bring about surrender. At least some of those proposals had conditions no Allied leader was going to accept - such as Japan keeping part of its Empire. As has also been pointed out, even two bombs AND the Russians weren't enough for some in the military, who attempted a coup.

    The idea that Japan was just going to give up is fantasy. If the hard liners could still muster the strength to attempt a coup after two bombs and 'August Storm', how much stronger would their hand have been without any of that?

    I don't recall the exact figure for deaths in the atomic bombings, but it seems to be 150,00-200,000. Even assuming that the war was brought to an end before the Allies had to invade Japan, more people than that would have died every month. Japan would still have been bombed and would likely have suffered famine. The war in China and Sth East Asia would have continued. The terrible famine in northern Vietnam caused by the Japanese would have killed more than the 1-2 million it killed historically. The estimate is that around 250,000 people, mostly Asian civilians, were dying every month. Of course, their deaths were dispersed and not being caused by the US, so they are effectively invisible to people who obsess about atomic bombs. I think 'motivated reasoning' is the nice term for that.

    Truman's choice was more focused - every US soldier who died was under his command. If he had a weapon he thought would end the war & didn't use it those deaths were on his conscience. The deaths of Japanese were the responsibility of the Japanese government, which could have surrendered any time it chose to, but did not. The war was clearly lost and Japan should have ended the suffering of its people. The idea that the responsibility for its refusal to surrender lies anywhere else is more than a bit absurd.
     
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  4. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    As if your opinion counts for anything...
     
  5. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    If you're suggesting by your reply that I mentioned the Powers book post a link showing that. If someone other than you quoted it, post a link showing that.

    Otherwise stop deflecting and prevaricating.
     
  6. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't really count on Speer as a reliable source. He was kept out of the loop. Most senior Nazis were, in fact.

    The Nazi nuclear weapons (plural) project was deeply concealed inside..... where else.... the Reich Post Office. It was centred on a facility in the Hartz mountains for assembly, and the testing took place near Linz. It was top secret, known only to a few and completely controlled by SS-Gruppenfuhrer und General der Waffen SS Hans Kammler -- who interestingly disappeared at wars end.

    The Nazis knew exactly how to build both a uranium and plutonium bomb and conducted some small tests too.
     
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  7. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Likely he has his Presidents mixed up. Although Hoover was a Republican, I can hardly blame him for mixing them up - they supported very similar, heavily progressive agendas.

    Bit embarrassing to be talking about in-depth, revelatory claims concerning WWII, yet not know one of the big 4 central figures in Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt.

    Then again maybe Hoover did have something to do with it and we're the idiots :party:
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  8. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    As long as the “expert” is completely wrong because he listens to revisionist liberal historians I’m safe
     
  9. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    The first question this begs is how did they make the U-235? My understanding is that the factories we required to make what we needed for the bombs we had were comparable in size and scope to the entirety of the Ford Motor Co.
     
  10. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    As I stated yesterday I conflated Hoover with Truman.
     
  11. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    I recommend you consider reading the four or five books I referenced earlier in this thread for an in-depth study. Nazism was a detestable philosophy but during the 1930's in particular, German scientists were at the cutting edge of world science and weapons technology.

    I have an article by, I think it was Time Magazine from just after WWII, which goes into detail of the thousands of breakthrough technological discoveries the Nazis made during WWII. The list is eye-watering and the US military and US industry was wetting themselves over them. For example they had something like 139 different guided missiles / rockets. If you wish I'll try and dig the article out of my archive and post it here. Let me know okay?
     
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  12. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    They pulled Hoover's security clearance right away, sent him back to Iowa, and let him have a small presidential library there.:roflol:
     
  13. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    JFK surrounded himself with his Harvard buddies who were known back then as the "Young and Brightest."

    In the end game they ended up not being so bright.

    Many of the "Young and Brightest" during the early 60's were warhawks and even the Rand Corporation told JFK to ignore President Eisenhower's warnings, that with a few Special Forces (Green Berets) you could win a war in South Vietnam.

    By 1968 many of these Democrat warhawks discovered they ****ed up and many became leaders of the anti-war movement in America, Ellsberg being one of them.

    After Reagan won the Cold War the Kremlin opened up some and revealed that the USSR spent more money on the SDS and the anti Vietnam War movement in America and Europe than they spent on arming the National Liberation Front better known as the "VC."

    The Soviet Union referred to the anti-Vietnam War movement leadership like the SDS as "useful idiots."

    I'm pretty sure Vladimir Putin today refers to the DNC, FaceBook, CNN, New York Times, etc. as useful idiots.
    Russians trolled the 2016 Presidential election and so many took the bait, hook line and sinker.
     
  14. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hitler more Humane than Truman.

    :roflol:Ok. Ok. Ok. Enough already. You’re killing me.

    Let’s talk about some far more profound and deep:

    Is water wet, or is it just that sand is dry?
     
  15. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Wiki is easy. You should start there. Try reading Wiki and you will discover that Germany and Japan had active nuclear weapons programs.
    This is not a secret. It is easy to find. Read the links to the Wiki footnotes.

    Nazi Germany and its allies were not human rights regimes with qualms about weapons of mass destruction, mass murder or genocide.
     
  16. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    So far your defense of Nazi Germany is not persuasive.
     
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  17. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    I note that you do not challenge the accuracy of anything from my posts. Here is another opportunity for you to do that:

    "1. The military dictatorship of Japan refused to surrender even after 2 atom bombs were dropped.
    2. Even after the Emperor managed to engineer a meeting with the top command that allowed him to directly order a surrender the military rebelled.
    3. The Imperial palace was stormed by troops in an effort to seize the Emperor and confiscate the recorded surrender speech.
    4. Having failed to capture the Emperor and the surrender recording troops seized the radio station to prevent the broadcast.

    Conclusion: the Japanese military government was not eager to surrender.

    I do not blame you. This history is seldom taught in our schools."
     
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  18. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    Hitler did not use chemical weapons, such as the United States did this massively in Vietnam.
     
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  19. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    Surely a case of experiencing burned fingers having changed attitudes don't you think? My position on this would be that it takes courage to publicly shift position 180 degrees and admit errors.

    As you know I don't have any faith at all in the political or media class of today. I wish it were otherwise, but there's nothing I've seen to suggest that a Damascene conversion is remotely imminent.

    But I bet there is zero evidence to conclude that Elsberg - or any of the above Dem war hawks you reference were Kremlin puppets.

    The hell with what Putin thinks. Given what we in the West have all been witnessing these past 30 years almost anyone would conclude those entities you mention - and in general the US elite and their bought and paid party political pawns, supplicant media and ideologically tainted think tanks - are unquestionably and absolutely provable idiots.

    And worse, they are provable idiots who, like their masters, are in the death-grip of the very worst power complexes, contemptible corruption and blinded by greed.
     
  20. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    Wiki is for people who don't know how to conduct deeper research. It is riddled by inaccuracies, errors, omissions and is subject to the most appalling propaganda spin. It should only ever be used with great caution and as a starting place for actual research.

    As far as Japan and Germany having active atomic weapons programmes, why are you telling me this? I know this and indeed have already posted these facts earlier in this thread.

    And for Gawd's sake, of course Japan and Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy weren't "human rights regimes". No one here has claimed otherwise, and I have never claimed that any of them had qualms about using weapons of mass destruction either.

    What I said was that Hitler choose not to proceed with an atom bomb. This was because there were genuine fears amongst scientists in Nazi Germany (and the US for that matter) that an atom bomb explosion could lead to a chain reaction setting fire to the atmosphere of the world that would destroy all life on this planet. Hitler therefore cancelled the nazi programme for an atom bomb and went a completely different way with nuclear weapons technology.
     
  21. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    It's not persuasive because I have not tried to defend it. Not now, not ever.

    It's your mind playing more tricks on you. You seem incapable of understanding the basic premise of stating historical facts is not the same as being ideologically involved.

    That and your inability to clear the leaden dross of prejudice out of your thinking processes that leads you to reach these daft conclusions.

    Unlike you young man, because clearly you are quite immature in your presentation and carriage -- my father and grandfather fought in WWII and placed their lives at risk to defeat Hitler and the Nipponese Emperor (my father operated in both theatres of war).

    Meanwhile, my paternal grandfather put himself in direct danger from the Gestapo in Berlin and Vienna circa 1938 and 1939 by arranging the Kindertransport of Jewish children out of occupied Europe and to safety in England.

    There's no reason why you should know this. But now you do. So any further slurs from you will be treated harshly. Fair warning.
     
  22. federalist50

    federalist50 Well-Known Member

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    So, is a mass murderer like Hitler a hero? If you were Harry Truman and were told that the estimated casualties for an invasion of Japan was an estimated 500,000 U.S. soldiers and an estimated 1,000,000 Japanese, what would you have done?
     
  23. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Used to be taught when I was in school in the 60’s.
     
  24. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Ty for making your position very clear. Nevertheless, the USG was far more rational than the psychos that ruled Nazi Germany.
    The fact that the American peaceniks developed nuclear weapons makes the notion that the Nazi monsters would have paused to save humanity seem rather preposterous. Mass extermination was job 1 for the Nazi elite, but winning the war was still their second highest priority.
     
  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You need to look at the definition of "useful idiot."

    The phrase was coined by the Kremlin / USSR.

    During the 60's and early 70's if the anti-draft and the anti-Vietnam war protesters found out that the Soviet Union financed and helped to organize the protest they were participating in, they would have gone home.
    The SDS who were the leadership of the "Counterculture Movement" during the 60's and were behind the anti draft and anti war movement unknowing useful idiots of the Kremlin. From the 1920's to 1990 CPUSA always got it's marching orders from the Kremlin.




    Wikipedia is a useful idiot of the left.
     
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