Hitler Wouldn’t Risk Doomsday, But The United States Did

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Striped Horse, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Hitler knew from personal experience that gas attacks did not work for Germany in WW I.

    Nevertheless, Hitler and his elite formations were focused on a policy of extermination and depopulation even at the expense of the war effort.
    Winning the war was actually a secondary objective for them. Even high level Nazi officials (outside the SS) were astonished at how irrational Hitler and his ruling elite SS political class really were.

    "Hans Frank showed that at some point he wanted to stabilize the movement, and his
    numerous complaints as Governor General of Poland testify to a total lack of understanding
    of the deliberately anti-utilitarian tendencies of Nazi policy. He cannot understand why the
    subjected peoples are not exploited but exterminated. Rosenberg, in the eyes of Hitler, was
    racially unreliable because he meant to establish satellite states in the conquered Eastern
    territories and did not understand that Hitler's population policy aimed at depopulating
    these territories."
    The Origins of Totalitarianism, by HANNAH ARENDT, Meridian Books, A MERIDIAN HOOK, Cleveland and New York, 1958.
    https://archive.org/stream/TheOriginsOfTotalitarianism/The-Origins-of-Totalitarianism_djvu.txt
     
  2. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    The 'America Bad - Hitler Good' "left". There were a lot of them until Germany invaded the USSR.
     
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  3. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    In fact, the Japanese military opposed surrender even after 2 atomic bombs were dropped on their cities
     
  4. DivineComedy

    DivineComedy Well-Known Member

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    Wow, instant loss of credibility.
     
  5. DivineComedy

    DivineComedy Well-Known Member

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    Uh, no I have not, but if I was it would be the pineapple scene.
     
  6. EarthSky

    EarthSky Active Member

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    Even if some in the military did oppose surrender, this is largely irrelevant to my argument that politically the Japanese were done before the bombs were dropped and were trying to negotiate terms POLITICALLY before the Russians entered the Pacific war.

    Let me try again:

    It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

    In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)


    "In April and May 1945, Japan made three attempts through neutral Sweden and Portugal to bring the war to a peaceful end. On April 7, acting Foreign Minister Mamoru Shigemitsu met with Swedish ambassador Widon Bagge in Tokyo, asking him "to ascertain what peace terms the United States and Britain had in mind." But he emphasized that unconditional surrender was unacceptable, and that "the Emperor must not be touched." Bagge relayed the message to the United States, but Secretary of State Stettinius told the US Ambassador in Sweden to "show no interest or take any initiative in pursuit of the matter." Similar Japanese peace signals through Portugal, on May 7, and again through Sweden, on the 10th, proved similarly fruitless.

    By mid-June, six members of Japan's Supreme War Council had secretly charged Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo with the task of approaching Soviet Russia's leaders "with a view to terminating the war if possible by September." On June 22 the Emperor called a meeting of the Supreme War Council, which included the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, and the leading military figures. "We have heard enough of this determination of yours to fight to the last soldiers," said Emperor Hirohito. "We wish that you, leaders of Japan, will strive now to study the ways and the means to conclude the war. In doing so, try not to be bound by the decisions you have made in the past."

    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

    I don't know how many times I have to repeat my main argument but Japan's political leadership knew it was done by April and May and was trying to negotiate peace through third parties including the Russians who were set to attack from the North. Even the American military in the persons of Arnold, Nimitz, Eisenhower, Halsey and MacArthur are on record both before and after the war that the bombing was necessary:

    The top American military leaders who fought World War II, much to the surprise of many who are not aware of the record, were quite clear that the atomic bomb was unnecessary, that Japan was on the verge of surrender, and—for many—that the destruction of large numbers of civilians was immoral. Most were also conservatives, not liberals. Adm. William Leahy, President Truman’s Chief of Staff, wrote in his 1950 memoir I Was There that “the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.… in being the first to use it, we…adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”

    Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, stated in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings that “the atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan…” Adm. William “Bull” Halsey Jr., Commander of the US Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946 that “the first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment…. It was a mistake to ever drop it…. [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…”

    The record is quite clear: From the perspective of an overwhelming number of key contemporary leaders in the US military, the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not a matter of military necessity. American intelligence had broken the Japanese codes, knew the Japanese government was trying to negotiate surrender through Moscow, and had long advised that the expected early August Russian declaration of war, along with assurances that Japan’s Emperor would be allowed to stay as a powerless figurehead, would bring surrender long before the first step in a November US invasion, three months later, could begin.


    https://www.thenation.com/article/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshima


    I know Americans find it hard to accept the reality of their nation's history without going on a fit of denial about how everyone hates them when all they want is to bring freedom and democracy to the world. The truth of American history just like the truth of any nations history is lost in the fog of patriotic propaganda and nationalism which we are all subject to.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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  7. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    Her is the reality:

    1. The military dictatorship of Japan refused to surrender even after 2 a-tomb bombs were dropped.
    2. Even after the Emperor managed to engineer a meeting with the top command that allowed him to directly order a surrender the military rebelled.
    3. The Imperial palace was stormed by troops in an effort to seize the Emperor and confiscate the recorded surrender speech.
    4. Having failed to capture the Emperor and the surrender recording troops seized the radio station to prevent the broadcast.

    Conclusion: the Japanese military government was not eager to surrender.

    I do not blame you. This history is seldom taught in our schools.
     
  8. EarthSky

    EarthSky Active Member

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    And I don't blame you for your false conclusion. It is clear that the Japanese government was acutely aware of what Germany's collapse and Russian entry into the Pacific meant and that they were putting out feelers for terms.

    What you have posted is exactly the justification for mass murder that is taught in your schools. Not that America was alone in this but the A bomb was a whole different thing.

    However, I recognize that no amount of evidence is going to sway you.

    Any comment on any of the links or passages I posted? All left-wing lies?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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  9. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    I note that you do not challenge any specific point from my post. ;-)
     
  10. EarthSky

    EarthSky Active Member

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    And I note you have supplied nothing in the way of links or evidence to support your claim even as I have provided at least 3 or 4 articles complete with documentation from the principles involved and 1 video from a reputable source.

    I note that you have not addressed any of the material I have supplied other than your vague opinion. Your opinion, while important to you, I'm sure, means nothing to the average reader and adds nothing to the discussion..
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  11. flyboy56

    flyboy56 Well-Known Member

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    And yet we dropped one on Japan and they refused to surrender. It took a second one for them to say uncle.
     
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  12. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    You stated that: "the truth is not hard to find out" --- and then you quote from Wikipedia.

    Give me a break.

    Not that I even mentioned Japan in the context of an atomic bomb, so why you've gone to the trouble to dispute something I haven't even raised in the first place tells one and all what your agenda and knowledge base really are.

    Nevertheless, you might consider starting your much needed education about reality by reading some of the books I quoted earlier in this thread - although I doubt you will because you (like so many here) already assume you know everything there is to know from perusing sources like Wikipedia.

    Btw, Carter Hydrick's book Critical Mass that I referenced earlier is available for free download so it will cost you and others nothing to read. Also note that the cargo of U boat U-234 was originally destined for Japan and the vessel only changed its destination once Germany surrendered. Why do you think the Japanese needed large quantities of enriched uranium - notably the 560 kilograms of U-235 if they didn't have an active atomic bomb programme? Perhaps you think that this uranium oxide was to be used to feed the Bonsai trees in the Imperial palace?

    Meanwhile the following from the LA Times (not Wiki):

     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  13. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Donor

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    'Stop digging' is my advice to you, Mac-7, you're dealing with an expert here and you'll get marmalized if you carry on.
     
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  14. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    Idiots are everywhere. And what is worse is that they're usually very vocal and adopt phrases like the ones you cite above.

    When you can come up with some facts to discuss, instead of the usual empty rhetoric that so many mebers here rely on, I'll pay attention. Until that time never comes search out another member to bore.
     
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  15. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't get around to Speer's book, but this is pretty much how I remember it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nuclear_weapons_program

    But, there is the question of where the U2 U-235 had on board came from.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  16. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Someone who still believes the fairy tale of the need for both bombs to drop bombs, because otherwise it would have cost hundreds of thousands of US victims to land in Japan?

    You know, that under Roosevelt the US called on the USSR to deal promptly with Japan after the defeat ... Stalin complied when Germany capitulated and sent more than 1 million soldiers and 5,000 tanks to the East and so on Americans were not alone?
     
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  17. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    That's one view I guess Apacherat. It's not one I agree with though. Some may have been useful idiots, others considered US foreign policy to be horribly flawed. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about this.
     
  18. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    There was no guarantee that Russia would attack. Even when it did, Russia lacked the resources for a proper amphibious assault on Japan. At best it could have made limited landings, so any invasion would be left to the Americans & British (and Australians). That is assuming Stalin even decided to attack Japan directly. It was not clear to Allied leaders that he would. In short, it was not at all clear that Russian intervention would speed up the Japanese surrender. We know now that it did, but that was not knowable at the time.

    As pointed out, for a nation that we are being told was just looking for a reason to surrender, Japan didn't surrender after the first atomic bomb. This might suggest to an astute observer that the 'feelers' being put out for peace either weren't that serious or didn't come from people in a position to actually bring about surrender. At least some of those proposals had conditions no Allied leader was going to accept - such as Japan keeping part of its Empire. As has also been pointed out, even two bombs AND the Russians weren't enough for some in the military, who attempted a coup.

    The idea that Japan was just going to give up is fantasy. If the hard liners could still muster the strength to attempt a coup after two bombs and 'August Storm', how much stronger would their hand have been without any of that?

    I don't recall the exact figure for deaths in the atomic bombings, but it seems to be 150,00-200,000. Even assuming that the war was brought to an end before the Allies had to invade Japan, more people than that would have died every month. Japan would still have been bombed and would likely have suffered famine. The war in China and Sth East Asia would have continued. The terrible famine in northern Vietnam caused by the Japanese would have killed more than the 1-2 million it killed historically. The estimate is that around 250,000 people, mostly Asian civilians, were dying every month. Of course, their deaths were dispersed and not being caused by the US, so they are effectively invisible to people who obsess about atomic bombs. I think 'motivated reasoning' is the nice term for that.

    Truman's choice was more focused - every US soldier who died was under his command. If he had a weapon he thought would end the war & didn't use it those deaths were on his conscience. The deaths of Japanese were the responsibility of the Japanese government, which could have surrendered any time it chose to, but did not. The war was clearly lost and Japan should have ended the suffering of its people. The idea that the responsibility for its refusal to surrender lies anywhere else is more than a bit absurd.
     
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  19. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    As if your opinion counts for anything...
     
  20. Striped Horse

    Striped Horse Well-Known Member

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    If you're suggesting by your reply that I mentioned the Powers book post a link showing that. If someone other than you quoted it, post a link showing that.

    Otherwise stop deflecting and prevaricating.
     

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