Hong Kong Protests Have a New Target—the Chinese Communist Party

Discussion in 'Asia' started by Mac-7, Sep 30, 2019.

  1. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    My standard is liberty. Yours? Whatever the masses like? (Have you forgotten how the colonists dealt with English sympathizers? It wasn't friendly at all. Hell, one time they threw private property overboard to protest English demand for tribute.)

    In any battle between good and evil, it is always wisest to stand with the good.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  2. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    How do you know that the violent protesters in Hong Kong are really from Hong Kong, and are not paid anarchists from foreign nations sent in to foment rebellion the way they did in Ukraine? I know in Athens when the students were protesting, that the masked anarchists were speaking foreign languages.

    As for the American colonists, before declaring their independence they held countless discussions in town halls and churches. It wasn't a rebellion by a minority against an 'elite' like in France or Russia - otherwise our revolution would have ended up just as murderous.

     
  3. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    China wants to control us

    Given the chance they will treat the world the way they treat their own dissidents
     
  4. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    Are you referring to the Boston Tea Party in such glowing terms?

    That was nothing more than John Hancock (a smuggler) using Sam Adams to organize the necessary muscle to eliminate the competition (the English) for his smuggled tea.

    Hancock was pissed because the English tea, even with the tea tax, was cheaper than his. "English demand for tribute"? LOL whatever ..... wrap it up in a flag if that's what floats your boat.
     
  5. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Hey! Are you now the arbitrator of what is good and evil?

    Anyway my point is that there are inherent and cultural differences between ethnicities and nations, and what might be right for certain people at one time and place, might not be right for others in that time and place. This doesn't mean people can't grow in virtue and knowledge, but everything has to be within their own time and in their own pace.





    WESTERN GODS
    [​IMG]
    Take that you fools of misery.
    For we are gods of lofty see.
    That knowest more the way to go
    than stupid folks like you below. - Jeannette
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  6. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    Tis true, the Americans were radicals to the core, but that's a virtue, not a vice. And tis also true, they were capitalists, landowners, merchants, artisans, and businessmen, or to put it simple, free traders, the essence of being free.
     
  7. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, I am the arbitrator of good and evil, as every independent mind is, and the standard I use is "that which benefits the rational mind".

    Ayn Rand: "All that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; all that which destroys it is the evil.:--http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/good,_the.html


    Who Is the Final Authority in Ethics--Ayn Rand
    (The opening paragraph) "There are certain questions that must be questioned -- that is, challenged at their root -- because they consist of smuggling a false premise into the mind of a careless listener. "Who created the universe?" is one such question. "Do you still beat your wife?" is another. And so is the question above."

    (The closing paragraph) "Who decides. In politics, in ethics, in art, in science, in philosophy -- in the entire realm of human knowledge --- it is reality that sets the terms, through the work of those men who are able to identify its terms and to translate them into objective principles.".https://courses.aynrand.org/works/who-is-the-final-authority-in-ethics/

    I suggest who read the entire essay.

    And based on that standard, the CPC is a tyranny that enslaves for the good of all--and the "good of all" is whatever is good for the CPC--and what the Hong Kong revolutionaries are fighting for is the right to live with liberty. Therefore, as liberty is a fundamental requirement for "human flourishing", the CPC, and those who support and sympathize with the CPC--like the wannabe tyrant, Dimwad Trash, oops, I mean Donald Trump,-- is the evil.

    Let the creative do as they wish and please,
    And we will have a future beyond what we now believe.--Starjet
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  8. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    The French helped us; didn't make our cause for liberty any less just.

    Hmmm. It was a rebellion by a minority of Englishmen, the American colonists, against a ruling Majority, the English. And the Revolution wasn't a Gandhi passively acting against a Colonial power, the British; it was rebellious radicals of fellow countrymen hell-bent on remaining free and destroying anyone or anything that got in their way. Much like the radical revolutionaries in Hong Kong against their fellow Chinese tyrants.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  9. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    We don't know that China wants to control us. We do know though that we want to control the world and destroy nations that don't bow to our demands - so of course we're paranoid that others might want to do the same. What I'm going to assume is that China has historical grievances and hang ups against the West - and especially Britain and the English speaking world in general and would love to surpass us.

    I'm also going to assume they hate Japan for the atrocities and genocide of WWII - but then again maybe they're not hateful. Also its system and the oppression of its people is not something to be desired. But their standard of living is going up and they are quite proud of it.

    Of course the possibility exists that China's system of government might change as it gains power, so why try to destroy them and destroy ourselves at the same time? This doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to be more independent of other nations. I think we should.
     
  10. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    the violent protester wont achieve anything, more likely it will get more violent and ppl lose their live for nothing. China will just sit and watch, in the end its HK lose. i would caution HK not end up like syria.
     
  11. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    Name a tyranny that apologized and relinguished power willingly.

    With America’s lust for power, it’s quite remarkable how many theocracies, monarchies, and nationalist tyrannies exist—one would think it would be otherwise. It’s obvious in today’s world that the power of reason can’t open the eyes of those blinded by faith in God, in Nation, in Society, or in Race.
     
  12. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    Doesn’t have to end up as a disaster. China could regain its sanity and behave morally and renounce sovereignty over Hong Kong.

    Why isn’t anyone demanding that? Because they have nukes? That gives them the right to enslave? The right to deny liberty to those who are free. Fk that.

    China! Just do the right thing. Apologize, learn your lesson, renounce and denounce communism, grant your citizens liberty, and become a moral nation. It will be a much, much happier, prosperous, healthier, and freer world for human flourishing. Isn’t that the ideal we are all striving for? I am.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  13. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Your wishful thinking that most residents of Hong Kong embrace communist dictatorship is laughable
     
  14. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Correction

    You may not know that china has ambitions over the entire world since you are so consumed with hate for America that you make apologies for our enemies
     
  15. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    mistake
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  16. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    mistake
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  17. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    They weren't radicals, most of the American colonists were farmers. They came as religious dissidents who wanted to worship the way they please and probably didn't feel any allegiance to a German king that was the head of the same Church that persecuted them. Otherwise why would the colonists revolt when they had the highest standard of living in the world?

    It was not a spontaneous revolt spurred on by hatreds and passions towards a ruling class like the French revolution. It was discussed in churches and town halls for years - and no doubt encouraged by France and other states that wanted to break Britain's power.
     
  18. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    The best answer to that was given by one of the revolutionary colonist during a interview in the early 1800’s. When asked why he fought on the side of the colonies, he stated, and I paraphrase. “We meant to govern ourselves, they meant to stop us. We taught them different.”

    Now, you can argue minutia, and split hairs over semantics, but the “shot heard around the world” wasn’t fired by farmers at scarecrows dressed in Red Coats; it was the overturning of the established order of the Divine Right of Kings to rule for the good of all, in favor of self-rule based on the rights of the individual; much in the same way Ayn Rand has turned the mystic morality of self-sacrifice on its head and demonstrated objectively that morality is the providence of self-interest—what ought one do to make one’s life the best it should be? And of course the answer is think.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  19. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    All nations have ambitions and want to become great, but China has never been an aggressive nation. I don't like their system though, it's an imprisonment of mankind. A radical change though would be very harmful. It has to change gradually as their standard of living goes up.

    As for Hong Kong, it reminds me of Maidan. Today Ukraine is controlled by Washington and the oligarch's wealth increased immensely, while the people who have to pay back all those IMF loans live on $200 a month. So much for the lies they were being fed.

    What I can't understand is how can Hong Kong be so stupid as to allow the CIA and Soros supported NGO's to remain there after the last protests unless economic pressure was put on them - maybe by Britain? Who knows?
     
  20. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Is China watching, knowing that as the Hong Kong economy goes down that the people will be more willing to fully incorporate themselves with China?
     
  21. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Donor

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    Don't insult the American colonists by comparing them to the Hong Kong protesters. If they had followed their passions like other revolutionists, they would have self destructed the way the other ones did. The French revolution turned into a murderous terror and they ended up with another monarchy, and the Bolsheviks who robbed much of Russia's wealth, not only cost the nation 25 million lives, but also took them 20 years to reach the same economic level as before.

    General Washington was so highly devout that he wouldn't allow any profanity among his men, never the less allow them to commit atrocities or do anything that would offend God. While in Hong Kong yesterday, an off duty police officer was dragged from his car by the rioters, beaten and then set on fire.
     
  22. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Never?

    How do you think china came to be china with hundreds of dialects and cultures?

    It was through conquest

    The japanese word kamikazi means Devine Wind and refers to two chinese in asion fleets that were destroyed by typhoons
     
  23. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not a fan of Spartacus, I imagine. But yet his cause was just, though inevitably doomed.

    It’s not I who insult the American revolutionaries; it's those carrying water for the Communist tyrants. Wonder who Locke, Payne, Adams, Otis, Jefferson, and Washington would side with?

    And though Washington may not have tolerated unnecessary atrocities, he had no qualms about executing cowards and traitors.

    It though appears that Ayn Rand may side with you, and offers much the same arguement as yours:

    Ayn Rand: "But there is no justification, in a civilized society, for the kind of mass civil disobedience that involves the violation of the rights of others—regardless of whether the demonstrators’ goal is good or evil. The end does not justify the means. No one’s rights can be secured by the violation of the rights of others. Mass disobedience is an assault on the concept of rights: it is a mob’s defiance of legality as such."

    There is also this from Ayn Rand: "Politically, mass civil disobedience is appropriate only as a prelude to civil war—as the declaration of a total break with a country’s political institutions."
    http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/civil_disobedience.html

    As well as this--Ayn Rand: "Tyranny is any political system (whether absolute monarchy or fascism or communism) that does not recognize individual rights (which necessarily include property rights). The overthrow of a political system by force is justified only when it is directed against tyranny: it is an act of self-defense against those who rule by force. For example, the American Revolution. The resort to force, not in defense, but in violation, of individual rights, can have no moral justification; it is not a revolution, but gang warfare." http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/revolution_vs_putsch.html

    And I believe that is what we are seeing, not a civil war, but a revolution. And that is why Hong Kong protestors have the moral right--they are revolting against Communist tyranny--they understand it is a fundamental issue of life as a free being or life as a slave for the Red Chinese state.


    In essence, the fight for liberty justifies any violence against tyranny--even if the fight is doomed. So it is with the free citizens of Hong Kong.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  24. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that if HK economy goes down it increases instability. There is a clear divide between mainland Chinese and HK. Both don't like each other
     
  25. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    its become too violent for bystander

     

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