Honor Killings in America

Discussion in 'United States' started by JessCurious, Jul 22, 2019.

  1. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    Wikipedia defines Honor Killing thus, "An honor killing or shame killing is the murder of a
    member of a family, due to the perpetrators' belief that the victim has brought shame or dishonor upon the family, or has violated the principles of a community or religion, usually
    for reasons such as divorcing or separating from their spouse, refusing to enter an arranged
    marriage, being in a relationship that is disapproved by their family, having premartial or
    extramartial sex, becoming the victim of rape or sexual assault, dressing in ways which are
    deemed inappropriate, engaging in non-heterosexual relations or renouncing a faith."

    It has been estimated that there are about two dozen Honor Killings in the USA every year -
    (Honor killing in America: DOJ report says growing problem is hidden in stats by Hollie
    McKay) - more precise figures can't be obtained because no one is responsible for
    keeping a record of them. While some honor killings are carried out by Hindus and sikhs,
    the great majority - 90% - are carried out by Muslims.

    What are the differences between honor killings and domestic violence? The victims of
    domestic violence tend to be adult women abused by husbands or boyfriends. The victims
    of honor killings tend to be the daughters of Muslim men. In domestic violence, the acts are
    usually spontaneous and not thought out. Honor killings are usually carefully planned in
    advance. It is unusual for more than one person to carry out acts of domestic violence. In
    honor killings the planning often includes other family members - mothers, sisters, brothers,
    cousins, etc., in addition to the father. Other family members often participate in the killings
    (though this is less common in the West than in the Middle East). While the perpetrators of
    domestic violence are often remorseful after their actions, the murderers in honor killings
    usually feel they have done nothing wrong and very rarely have any regrets.

    Phyllis Chesler is a retired New York City psychologist and feminist who has lived in Afghanistan. She is the author of a dozen books on women's subjects and is considered
    an expert on Honor Killings. In an article entitled "Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings,"
    she wrote, "Tempted by Western ideas, desiring to assimilate, and hoping to escape
    lives of subordination, those girls and women who exercise their option to be Western
    are killed - at early ages and in particularly gruesome ways. Frightening honor murders
    may constitute an object lesson to other Muslim girls and women about what may happen
    to them if they act on the temptation to do more than serve their fathers and brothers as
    domestic servants, marry their first cousin, and breed as many children as possible. The
    deaths of females already living in the West may also be intended as lessons for other
    female immigrants who are expected to lead subordinate and segregated lives amid the
    temptations and privileges of freedom."

    The first known Honor Killing in the US occurred in St. Louis, Missouri, on November
    6, 1989, when 16-year-old Palestina (Tina) Isa was murdered by her Palestinian father
    Zein Isa and his Brazilian born wife Maria. Palestina was an honor student, fluent in four
    languages, who played soccer and tennis at school. She didn't drink, smoke or use drugs,
    But her parents were angry with her because they found out that she was secretly seeing
    a black young man and they were virulent racists. Tina wanted to go to college and have
    a career, while her parents wanted her to marry a Palestinian man and have a family. Tina,
    her three older sisters, and her mother all worked in Zein's grocery store without pay. Tina
    wanted a paying job and applied to Wendys. On her first evening of work, she left a note
    to her parents telling them she had taken a job and would be home afterwords. She had not
    told them because she knew they would disapprove. Her parents had consulted with her
    sisterss and Palestinian friends about Tina's Western ways, most of whom said Tina had
    to be killed to erase the shame her too indepentant ways. Tina returned home from work
    just before midnight. Her mother held her down on the floor while her father stabbed her
    thirteen times. Zein gave himself a small cut on one of his hands while stabbing Tina.
    When the police arrived, he showed them the cut and claimed Tina had gone crazy and
    tried to kill him, and that he had wrestled the knife away and killed her in self-defense.
    He suggested that Tina might have been high on drugs when she attacked him (none
    were found during her autopsy). He claimed Maria was not involved.
    Zein's defense soon feel apart, however. The FBI had learned that Zein Isa was
    a member of Abu Nidal's terrorist organization and had bugged his home. The entire murder
    was caught on tape. The jury heard Tina beg for her life while her mother yelled "Shut up"
    and her father yelled "Die, My Daughter, Die!" They were both convicted of first degree
    murder and sentenced to death on December 20, 1991. Zein died from complications of
    diabetes while on Death Row on Feb. 17, 1997. Maria's sentence was commutted to life
    and she died in prison on April 30, 2014. The Isa case was examined on an episode of
    the TV program "Forensic Files."
    .





    .
     
  2. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    Is this just an anti-muslim thread? 24 murders out of, what, 12,000?
     
  3. Infrared

    Infrared Newly Registered

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    Is any criticism of Islam and it’s properties “anti-Muslim” to guys? Lol
     
  4. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    So what's the point of this thread then? Highlighting a shocking murder statistic?
     
  5. Infrared

    Infrared Newly Registered

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    The point of threads like this is to inform people of things they may not be aware of. Whether you find them comfortable to read is irrelevant
     
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  6. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    Why not tell everyone that there are 12,000 deaths every year caused by gunshot wounds. Oh, wait, everyone know that and they're comfortable reading it. 24 deaths due to honour killings are far more important.
     
  7. Infrared

    Infrared Newly Registered

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    You seem to really object to this thread. Are you concerned that people will find out another thing wrong with Islam and decide to discuss it openly?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  8. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    24 deaths with the cause being an anti-western and radical ideology.There is a specific pattern, all having the same root cause: Islam.

    Have you even read the Qur'an, mate? Want me to cite the specific Hadiths pertaining to honor killings? Or how about the some 109 verses as far as violence towards non-believers go?

    There's not bad people. There's bad ideologies. Islam is one of the bad ideologies.

    https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread
    60% of correspondents don't favor homosexuality.
    45% don't think Jews can be trusted.

    Islam have 1.3 billion followers on the planet. 15-25% of those according to every intelligence network/agency are radical, support radical action and/or support radical groups.

    It's no coincidence that Islam is at the forefront and being widely criticized and attacked, let alone Muslims who throw the victim card in front of them as opposed to having to deal with the reality of their garbage ideology.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  9. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. Discuss away. But it isn't very significant.
     
  10. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. What to make of this?
    The honour killings are a cultural tradition rather than Islam, not really anti-western 'cos they happen in their own countries too. I don't read any religious texts because they're nonsense.
    Lots of christians don't favour homosexuality either, starting with the RCC. Those %'s are quite low, actually.
    What does 24 honour killings have to do with radical Islam anyway?
    If you don't like muslims that's your choice.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  11. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    The point of this thread reminds readers that 'honor killings' are infinitesimally low in numbers and percentages.
     
  12. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    Only in Islam are honor killings done in any sort of active fashion, mate. Honor killings are part of normal Islam, by the way, not the more radical one.

    Put shame on your family? Your family will follow you and murder you to restore honor to the family. Not only is this barbaric and backwards as hell, it's atrocious and have no place in civilized society today. Tho then again Islam is an even more backwards ideology than Christianity and Judaism combined.

    And of course you don't read religious texts, mate. It would mean you'd have to accept the concept that people do violent and atrocious things for religious reasons, Islam being one of those reasons. And it'd force you to accept the reality of the reasons why people don't want this backwards Stone Age garbage in our society.

    Islam is garbage, just like a lot of other religions. Muslims are victims of their own ideology. I don't fault them for being brainwashed.
     
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  13. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    If we studied violence and the religious landscape of Christianity, probably several hundred such killings for 'honor' would be discovered annually in America.
     
  14. Infrared

    Infrared Newly Registered

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    What is it with the left and the "but what about the Christians?" argument when Islam is discussed?

    Also I doubt such a thing exists in the modern Christian religion in America, but it was a nice attempt at a scapegoat :V
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  15. Yakamaru

    Yakamaru Well-Known Member

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    You're claiming "If we studied violence and the religious landscape of Christianity, probably several hundred such killings for 'honor' would be discovered annually in America" without anything to back this vague and unsubstantiated claim with.

    I want such studies too, if Christians actually do commit honor killings in this day and age. But in my 30 years of existence have I not heard of any such killings in today's society as far as Christianity is concerned.

    And no, just because you have ONE passage in Leviticus doesn't mean people actually act upon it.

    I will have to answer with [Citation needed, please].
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  16. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    The 'whataboutism' defense is perfectly acceptable because the far right uses it all the time to defend Trump by referring to Obama or Clinton.

    Works both ways, guys.

    My "vague" claim is perfectly acceptable as a prima facie response to the OP. Most common sense readers' reactions will be, probably so.

    Murder will murder, and Christians do it for their 'honor' as do other religions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  17. ashdoc

    ashdoc Active Member

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    I am from India and honour killings occur in my country too among Hindus . Usually it occurs to a girl who has married outside her caste or religion . Mostly women are victims , but sometimes both the boy and girl are killed . But hindus migrating to the west usually don't indulge in honour killings because they get partially westernised .

    Muslims are more attached to their religion and refuse to get westernised , leading to them carrying their culture into the west .
     
  18. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    In Smith and Jasper counties, East Texas, the more 'fanatical' men were paid private visits and put on notice. Since most of the families were interlinked in the hospitality businesses, from owners to night clerks and house maids, everyone had a lot to lose if anyone acted stupidly. The girl was allowed to marry 'outside' of the culture but was not allowed to return.
     
  19. Pants

    Pants Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps it is because being a devout Christian, just like being a devout Muslim, requires you to suspend your own intuitions and thinking and follow doctrine. For a Christian to throw stones at a Muslim is ridiculous - and it is called out when it happens.
     
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  20. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    There are between 5,000 and 10,000 honor killings throughout the World every year. About 90% worldwide are carried out by Muslims. As the Muslim populations increase in a Western country,
    so do the honor killings. Pakistan seems to lead the World in honor killings with a minimum of 1,000 per year. Among Western countries, Great Britain seems to have the most honor killings. No
    one knows for sure because neither the US or Britain keep track of honor killings for fear of being labelled 'Islamophobic.' Muslim women pay the price of this political correctness. For those who
    are interested, I have previously started a thread on honor killings in Pakistan in the Middle East section of this forum.
     
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  21. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    Strange, when white supremists in Charlottesville, Va., killed ONE protestor in 2017, not one Liberal said "Well, That's numerically insignficant." No one said, "Well, what about the other 12,000
    people killed" then. But when you talk about 24 Muslim women brutally killed in honor killings - suddenly it becomes "That's not enough to worry about." As the number of Muslims grows in the USA,
    so too will the number of honor killings. Muslims, both those already here, and those coming into the country, need to be taught that this tradition from the Middle East is not acceptable in our free,
    pluralistic society. Here, women are free to look beyond the traditional role of being breeding stock, that they can choose for themselves who they want to marry, or not marry. They can choose
    to go to college and seek careers.
     
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  22. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    No one wrote, "suddenly it becomes "That's not enough to worry about."

    In the USA, most Muslim men with a rep for violation against women are known to the police, I would think. 24 deaths out of 11000, while horrifying for the women and families and friends, is statistically insignificant.

    Have the police keep after such Muslims as they are after white and Christian would-be killers.
     
  23. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    With the Muslim community being so insular I think it highly unlikely that Muslim men with a reputation for violence would be known to the police. The women who are killed are not the only victims of
    honor killings. Millions of Muslim women worldwide are raised knowing of incidents of honor killings and they grow up knowing that they could pay a terrible price if they step beyond the boundaries
    of tradition. One killing can keep many thousands of girls and women 'in line.'
     
  24. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Jess, you have no idea about that at all, in my humble opinion.

    We knew exactly who the bad guys were in Tyler and Jasper, and they knew that we knew.

    Now in NCY or LA, you may be right.

    The same thing with crazy Christians who blow up abortion clinics, or shoot doctors, or black people or whatever.
     
  25. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    I suggest that anyone interested in this subject read Phyllis Chesler's article "Are Honor Killings Simply Domestic Violence"
    in the Middle East Quarterly, Spring 2009 (https://dev.meforum.org/2067/are-honor-killings-simply-domestic-violence). Chesler
    is a New York City psychologist (now retired actually) who has lived in Afghanistan, and is considered an expert on the subject
    of Honor Killings. Her article explains the importance of Honor Killings in Muslim societies.
     

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