Hot Take: Nazis were not evil for their time.

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by Aquarius, Feb 10, 2022.

  1. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is at least my opinion that the first step to becoming a "NAZI understander" is to acknowledge that "Nazi" is a pejorative abbreviation for National Socialism (NS).

    Since National Socialism can occur in any country and take many forms, I think that its important to distinguish which form of NS you're trying to understand.

    It seems like you're trying to understand NS as it occurred in Germany from the 1920s to 1945. In order to understand German NS from that era it is essential to understand its goals and characteristics.

    Some of them were:
    EXCERPT:
    "1. HITLER BROKE FREE FROM THE INTERNATIONAL BANKING CARTELS

    2. HITLER CREATED A THRIVING ECONOMY WITH NO UNEMPLOYMENT

    3. HITLER EMPHASIZED RESPECT FOR WOMEN, CHILDREN AND STRONG FAMILY VALUES

    4. NAZI PRESERVATION OF ENVIRONMENT AND ANIMALS

    5. HITLER BANNED EXPERIMENTATION ON ANIMALS (VIVISECTION)

    6. HITLER FUNDED RESEARCH INTO “FREE ENERGY” TECHNOLOGIES

    7. GERMAN WORKERS WERE WELL-TREATED

    8. ORGANIZED INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION & FARMING

    9. HITLER ELIMINATED CRIME AND IMPROVED HEALTH OF GERMANS

    10. NO CITIZEN WILL STARVE OR FREEZE

    11. THE NAZI ANTI-TOBACCO MISSION

    12. NAZI’S CREATED A CULTURE THAT CHERISHED MUSIC"
    CONTINUED (1)

    Since I don't see anything intrinsically evil in this list of goals or accomplishments, I wouldn't say that NS is any better or worse than other forms of government or ideology like Zionism, Communism or other forms of Socialism.

    From what you've written so far, it seems like you're trying to understand specifically Germany's National Socialism from the 1920s - 1945 rather than National Socialism in general.

    Do you feel that is an accurate assessment of your sentiments?





    (1) "Here are 12 things you were not told about Adolph Hitler and Nazi Germany"
    http://www.topinfopost.com/2015/01/05/things-you-were-not-told-about-hitler
     
  2. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for this most informative post. For those of us who have followed your years of doggesd holocaust denial it makes clear what was always implied - you are a Nazi sympathizer whose claims about the holocaust are motivated by politics. Nice to have it laid out so plainly.
     
  3. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re:
    Why would you care what small minded name callers say about you especially when some of the things you listed are true.
    Anyone who knows anything about the Treaty of Versailles and the subsequent post war Allied crimes against Germany knows that it was one of modern history's most cruel and criminal follies.

    Additionally, I can't think of anyone who has anything praiseworthy to say about the dysfunctional Weimar Republic.

    Finally, even Jewish historian, Arno Mayer, admits that more camp inmates died of disease than by execution while the impartial International Red Cross is clear in asserting that there was no genocidal German agenda (1)

    I'm still not quite clear as to why you're being called a "NAZI" but it really says more about the speaker's ignorance and hyper judgmental character disorder than anything else.

    Maybe you'd be a little happier if you spent less time around such negative, critical and judgmental people because your beliefs are perfectly rational.



    (1) “RED CROSS DENIES HOLOCAUST!: 1948 ICRC Report: No Evidence Of Genocide, Gas Chambers Or Systematic Extermination Of Jews. Most Deaths Caused By “Barbarous Bombing Of Civilian Germany By the U.S and U.K. Which Is A War Crime!” – ICRC PDF Here. UPDATE: In 2006, 58 Years Later, The ICRC Changed Their Story.”

    https://truedemocracyparty.net/2020...bombing-of-civilian-germany-by-the-u-s-and-u/

    EXCERPT “They found No Evidence Of Genocide, Gas Chambers Or Systematic Extermination Of Jews, and blamed most of the deaths on the “Barbarous Bombing Of Civilian Transportation Infrastructure in Germany By the U.S and U.K., which led to mass starvation, Typhus, and Death of the Civilian Population and in the Labor Camps which couldn’t get food, Medicine or any supplies at all. They called it a War Crime!” CONTINUED
     
  4. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, if you had read enough of what I've written to know what you're talking about you would know that I abhor all forms of totalitarianism.

    If anything, I am only attempting to take an objective viewpoint and am sympathetic to the German people who have been so unjustly tormented, extorted and slandered over the decades by the Holocaust Industry and its programmed gaggle of "Hollywood educated" holocaustians.

    Re:
    I couldn't care less about the opinions of small minded, professionally brainwashed and slanderous gossip mongers who, over the years, have been entirely unable to refute anything I've written and supported.

    The only thing that is laid out so plainly is that you, too, are only capable of low brow, off-topic slander.


    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" Socrates
     
  5. Phil

    Phil Well-Known Member

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    I don't see anything in that platform about expanding and protecting human rights, civil rights, woman's rights, religious freedom, fair and open elections, not even immigration reform.
    Anyone voting for that platform knew it could only achieve its goals if it was unchallenged from within by any organized opponent.
    By voting NAZI they did what America did in the last few elections, they made the country worse.
     
  6. Phil

    Phil Well-Known Member

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    What I understand is anger against France and Britain, jealousy of the Jews and desire for land and national pride.
    In the hands of madmen that brings disaster.
    Putin and his friends have similar plans. We would understand him if we understood them.
     
  7. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First, I'd like to tell you how refreshing it is to be able to calmly discuss this topic with someone mature and rational enough to abstain from simpleminded, Hollywood educated group-think and puerile slander. Few Westerners possess the critical thinking capacity to discuss Germany's National Socialism beyond the cartoonish hyperbole and grotesque stereotypes poured into their heads by Western MSM propagandists.

    However, you're right, there is nothing reassuring in the 12 features listed (1) to anyone who values the essential freedoms that too few Americans appreciate.
    Totalitarianism is what we end up with when we value security over freedom and that is precisely where we are headed with "hate speech" laws, "gun control" laws, "civil forfeiture" laws and similar erosions of our basic freedoms.

    I suspect that the German people supported National Socialism over Communism because of the brutal and ruthless excesses committed by Communists / Bolsheviks they saw in Russia such as Holodomor, the mass murder of the Czar, his family and other White Russians (vs Red / Communist Russians).

    It didn't help the situation of Germany's Jewish community that little known Communist mass murderers like Genrikh Yagoda and Leonid Reichman(2) who helped Stalin murder millions happened to be Jewish. What further cast all Jews in a hostile and threatening light is the intertwinement of many leading Jews with Communist - Marxist leadership.
    For example:

    - “Some call it Marxism - I call it Judaism.”
    Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, in the American Bulletin of May 15, 1935

    - “The revolution in Russia is a Jewish revolution”
    The Maccabean (New York), Nov. 1905, p, 250

    - “Jewry is the mother of Marxism.”
    Le Droit de Vivre, May 12, 1936

    - “Judaism is Marxism, communism”
    Harry Waton, A Program for the Jews and an Answer to All Anti-Semites (New York: Committee for the Preservation of the Jews, 1939), p. 64

    - “The communist soul is the soul of Judaism.”
    Harry Waton, A Program for the Jews and an Answer to All Anti-Semites (New York: Committee for the Preservation of the Jews, 1939), p. 143

    Additionally:

    EXCERPT
    "In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin." CONTINUED (2)

    So, many German Jews were cruelly persecuted because of their affiliation with murderous Communism while others held high ranking positions in the National Socialist Party and about 150,000 served in Germany's WW 2 military with some rising to the highest ranks and earning Germany's highest honors.

    People who have been professionally deceived by residual Allied propaganda, the Holocaust Industry and its complicit MSM maintain that Jews were persecuted because of their ethnic and / or religious background. While there was widespread anti Semitism throughout Europe, that myth conflicts with the fact that many Jews were so highly placed in the National Socialist power structure.

    It is precisely because so many Jewish individuals were highly placed in both the NS Party and the military that there could not have been a genocidal German Agenda.

    Re:
    While there is absolutely nothing appealing to me in National Socialism or any other totalitarian form of government, it did provide for life's basic necessities but at too great of a cost to our most essential freedoms.
    Because we do not know how a National Socialist(NS) Germany would have played out without the overwhelming demands on Germany of WW 2, I don't know how Germany would have fared in a peacetime setting.

    The US and Germany were among many countries that incarcerated real or perceived threats during wartime and there is ample evidence that inmates of German work camps were well fed and cared for until food and medicine became unavailable due to the Allied destruction of civilian infrastructure. A peacetime NS Germany may not have felt that mass incarcerations were needed. I just don't know.

    Finally, in what ways do you feel that the country is getting worse?

    Thanks,


    (1) "Here are 12 things you were not told about Adolph Hitler and Nazi Germany"
    http://www.topinfopost.com/2015/01/05/things-you-were-not-told-about-hitler



    (2) "Stalin's Jews"

    "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish"

    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

    EXCERPT "And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people.

    In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin. They too, of course, were gradually eliminated in the next purges.

    Many Jews sold their soul to the devil of the Communist revolution and have blood on their hands for eternity. We'll mention just one more: Leonid Reichman, head of the NKVD's special department and the organization's chief interrogator, who was a particularly cruel sadist."CONTINUED
     
  8. Phil

    Phil Well-Known Member

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    To me Trump is Hitler. Not only that, back about 2013 I wrote a short story in which American NAZIs in 2015 invent a time machine, rescue Hitler from the bunker, cure his medical problems, stabilize his mood and offer him a new identity if he will run for President in 2016.
    Imagine my horror when it came true.
     
  9. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't especially like Trump but feel that the Biden - Harris clown show has demonstrated some of the most grotesque incompetence I have ever seen.

    Re: Hitler; JFK made the following observation in his diary:

    “You can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived,” (1)

    I can't think of any person throughout history who has been the target of such simpleminded and hate filled propaganda even over 76 years after his death.

    Even though he is widely blamed for the deaths of millions, unlike Eisenhower, Churchill and Stalin, there is absolutely no evidence that Hitler ordered the mass murder of anybody.

    He is additionally blamed for starting WW 2 in an attempt tp conquer the world. That, too, is just simpleminded nonsense.
    There is a wide variety of opinions as to when and WW 2 started.
    Some consider WW 1 and WW 2 as one larger war with a cooling off period. Others note that the first declaration of war was issued by "Judea" (i.e. the world's united Jewish community) but Germany's invasion of Poland is the most commonly accepted "start" of WW 2.

    Few people are aware of the compelling reason for Germany's invasion of formerly German parts of Poland which was to stop Poland's mass murder of ethnic Germans in Danzig and elsewhere. Germany under Hitler appealed to the League of Nations nearly one hundred times to stop Poland's ethnic cleansing but the League of Nations did nothing to stop the ongoing mass murder.

    Few people are also aware of Stalin's plans and preparations to sweep Westward and invade all of Western and Eastern Europe in around 1941. It was only because German intelligence agencies learned of those plans that Germany launched its invasion of Russia.
    One of the reasons for Germany's early military successes was that Stalin's forces were in offensive positions rather than defensive positions.

    Just as few people are aware of Hitler's offer to withdraw from Western Europe in exchange for a "well wishing neutrality" and a free hand to fight Communism(2). Regrettably, Churchill and FDR were more interested in destroying Germany than allowing Germany to deal with Stalin's Communist threat.

    I'm afraid that contrary to JFK's prediction that it will take objective minds more than a few years before Hitler is fully understood.

    Thanks,





    (1). https://time.com/4711687/john-f-kennedy-diary-hitler/


    (2) "Nazis ‘offered to leave western Europe in exchange for free hand to attack USSR"
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/...in-exchange-for-free-hand-to-attack-USSR.html

    EXCERPT. "Mr Padfield, who makes the claims in a new book, Hess, Hitler and Churchill, said: “This was not a renegade plot. Hitler had sent Hess and he brought over a fully developed peace treaty for Germany to evacuate all the occupied countries in the West.” CONTINUED
     
  10. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What ever happened to the short story?
    Did it ever get published anywhere?
     
  11. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    My Stepdad was an army photographer, he took pictures of some death camps when we got there.

    Ugly, nasty, evil.
     
  12. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course the German run work camps were in horrible shape toward the end of the war. All of Germany was in ruins but
    the Red Cross blamed indiscriminate Allied destruction of civilian German infrastructure for Germany's inability to supply the camps with basic essentials.
    Captured documents reveal that before the end of the war, inmates in German run camps received adequate food and stories of a deliberate starvation policy were simply more Allied propaganda. (1)

    Regardless of the condition of the German run camps, they were better than Eisenhower's real death camps where German POWs were deliberately starved to death and even had no shelter from the elements. (2)

    Your stepfather may or may not have known the degree to which conditions in the liberated camps were staged for propaganda purposes(3) frequently with professional actors, bodies of dead German POWs and dead German civilians.

    I'm not suggesting that life in Germany's WW 2 work camps were idyllic because they weren't supposed to be. They housed murderers, rapists, thieves, and con artists as well as political prisoners who were either real or perceived threats to Germany.

    Thanks,



    (1) “Allied Forensic Autopsies Confirm Disease, Not Gas”
    https://20thcenturytruth.wordpress.com/allied-forensic-autopsies-confirm-disease-not-gas/

    EXCERPT “Dr. Russell Barton further testified that on entering the camp he had credited stories of deliberate starvation but decided such stories were untrue after inspecting the well equipped kitchens and the meticulously maintained ledgers, dating back to 1942, of food cooked and dispensed each day.

    Despite noisily publicised claims and widespread popular notions to the contrary, no researcher has ever been able to document a German policy of extermination through starvation in the German camps.” CONTINUED


    (2) "EISENHOWER’S STARVATION ORDER"
    https://ww2truth.com/2021/10/02/eisenhowers-starvation-order/

    EXCERPT "Copies of the orders were discovered recently in several villages near the Rhine … The message [which Bacque reproduces] reads in part: “… under no circumstances may food supplies be assembled among the local inhabitants in order to deliver them to the prisoners of war. Those who violate this command and nevertheless try to circumvent this blockade to allow something to come to the prisoners place themselves in danger of being shot….” CONTINUED


    (3) “The Director of the Holocau$t - Khazar Expatriate Billy Wilder”
    https://archive.org/details/TheDirectorOfTheHolocaut-KhazarExpatriateBillyWilder

    EXCERPT “Almost all the films you've ever seen of the Holocaust were staged. Using Allied propaganda as a rough script, directors from Hollywood were shipped to Germany and Poland to direct propaganda films for post-war use. One of the most notable of these was Billy Wilder, director of meny very well known films, such as "Some Like It Hot" with Marilyn Monroe." CONTINUED

     
  13. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    I had wanted to do a good post on this, but there's too much going on.

    I've seen this sort of propaganda before.

    Europe was in chaos after the war, and everyone was suffering, we shipped food over as fast as we could, but it was a grim situation. There was also violence, Hitler had organised a resistance movement with a name like werewolves or something like that. Jews were killing Germans when they got the chance, and who could blame them. It was a mess, we did what we could, but peacekeeping takes a whole lot of troops and money. It took a while to shift from a war footing.

    While we were getting emergency supplies to Europe, we were coming up with the Marshall Plan and Bretton Woods. That didn't just help Europe rebuild, it set them on a path to peace and prosperity.

    Nazis were famous for cruelty, a reputation they earned before they came to power. After the war, the Jews that survived, what was left, moved to other countries. But they left behind a lot of relatives in graves. And when I say a lot...
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2022
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Are you serious?

    You want to think over that statement and reconsider it and retract your words?

    Genocide is okay, so long as the other ethnicity started it first???


    You know, for the longest time I've been thinking about starting a thread "Progressives say the darndest things". I think you've just inspired me to begin that project and start keeping a list.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
  15. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Of course, the problem is you are not.

    I'm a policy guy, there is nothing here that suggests a change in policy.

    What the Jews did was revenge, not genocide, thousands, not millions. Given the situation, it's understandable.
     
  16. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why retract words that are truthful?

    Just because Hollywood and Allied propagandists only focus on German villains doesn't mean that there weren't Jewish and Allied villains who were even worse.

    Please consider reading up on Salomon Morel, "An Eye for an Eye: The Untold Story of Jewish Revenge Against Germans in 1945" and / or “How the Jews Defeated Hitler”.

    I think that the more you learn about this tragic era, the more you'll see that no ethnic, religious or nationalist group is exclusively good or evil.

    Thanks,
     
    Jazz likes this.
  17. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Re:
    I have just 2 questions:

    1. In what way is "...too much going on" for you to write a "... good post on this" ?

    2. What is the "propaganda" that you've seen before?
     
  18. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    There is a lot going on. But there's also the point where dealing with Nazi apologists is both nauseating and pointless.

    The propaganda of Nazi apologists.
     
  19. Phil

    Phil Well-Known Member

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    I posted my short story on a forum called Inkitt. I was hoping to be discovered.
    Someone suggested I continue the story, but writing speeches for Hitler, debates, crowd responses, primaries, etc was beyond nauseating.
    I had a better plan for the ultimate James Bond movie.
    In 2019 the spy from Moonraker meets Bond secretly in Iceland. She tells him that strange things have happened since the new administration took over. The US has forces in places with no national interest. CIA spies are being killed and the clues point back towards fellow government agents. There are wiretaps on upstanding citizens and mysterious deaths everywhere.
    When he returns home M16 won't help.
    Then he finds out the lady was murdered.
    Taking a leave of absence he tracks down Felix and gets enough hints that Felix is trying to fight the enemy from within. They kill Felix this time.
    After that comes 2 hours of continuous action. At the end, the guy who invented the machine and 2 top associates escape into time.
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trying to double down on your ridiculous assertion?

    I'm sorry, I gave you the chance to rethink and retract your comment and you did not. Your quote is going on the list now.
    People will read your quote and mock you.
     
  21. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You've obviously misunderstood my sentiments because I abhor all forms of totalitarianism especially what passes for Neo Nazism, today.

    I lived, worked and studied in what was then West Germany in the early 1970s where I became close to several holocaust survivors, former German soldiers, German civilian survivors of fire bombing and WW 2 survivors of other nationalities and nowhere did I see any more evil in WW 2 era Germans than I did in anyone else.

    After attempting to look at the WW 2 era objectively and extensively, I feel that the German people have been unjustly accused and paid dearly for many crimes and atrocities they simply did not commit.

    You suggested that what I have written is "propaganda", i.e. being dishonest. Please support your accusation by refuting anything I've written.

    Finally, I hope you're not naive enough to believe that only the "other" side uses propaganda.
    (The American propaganda agency during WW 2, by the way, was the OWI, Office of War Information)
    Again, please show where I have written anything that is "propaganda".

    Thanks,
     
  22. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I already gave just one example and 2 books that document mass murder of innocent German civilians and POWs by Jewish individuals and groups in my Post # 291.
    Genrikh Yagoda(1) and Leonid Reichman(1) are two other earlier mass murderers who happened to be Jewish and are responsible for the deaths of millions.

    It was precisely because of Jewish Communists like these two men that many Germans feared both Communism and some Jews.

    The only point I'm trying to make is that no, single race, religion or ethnic group is exclusively good or evil.



    (1) "Stalin's Jews"

    "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish"

    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

    EXCERPT "And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people.

    In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin. They too, of course, were gradually eliminated in the next purges.

    Many Jews sold their soul to the devil of the Communist revolution and have blood on their hands for eternity. We'll mention just one more: Leonid Reichman, head of the NKVD's special department and the organization's chief interrogator, who was a particularly cruel sadist."CONTINUED
     
  23. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    I don't have to, a small army of historians have gone over this, and we have a SI (Standard Interpretation). It's not easy getting to SI..

    I refer you to that, and any recent, relevant, papers in historical journals.
     
  24. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Thanks, first laugh of the day.

    I place no value judgement on this, as I previously made clear. In the same situation, I would have done the same. But it's part of the historical record. If you can find a relevant source from a historical journal, I would very much like to read it.
     
  25. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    MORE EVASIONS


    "Standard Interpretation" sounds like just another lazy term for "Group Think" and much of what I have written is already based on the work of historians.

    It's one thing to have a differing opinion but when you accuse someone of writing propaganda (i.e. lying) , you should have the knowledge and integrity to effectively refute what they've said.

    So, please stop being evasive and show where anything I've written is false.
     

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