House Bill 1441 - Do fathers get a say in the abortion of their unborn child?

Because Mom and Dad are the boss, they are responsible for their children, children need permission to do things. Adults in a relationship do not need permission from each other especially to get to get a medical procedure

.

So? NO one should knuckle under and become "owned " by another so they don't get upset. That's ridiculous! NO one should be controlled by another, if they are the relationship is very DAMAGED.

NOPE, see above...

I have no idea what you mean.

...and "secret keeping" isn't against the law...and really is no one's business but the one having the abortion.

Lying and keeping secrets are two different things.....and please believe me, (you sound very young) all relationships are not the same nor should they be, everyone has different ideas on what makes them happy and content...

 

Odds are they do if they want to maintain that relationship.

relationships require compromise

human relationships in general are based on controlling other people, with losing the relationship being the incentive

what you're arguing is an ideal, it is not a valid reflection of reality

As in, if people who don't lie and keep secrets from their partner have longer lasting relationships, then it seems like a valid conclusion to make that being honest helps maintain relationships.

So? Doesn't mean it isn't immoral.

Sure, but again if the person having the abortion also wanted to maintain a relationship with the father, it would serve her best interests then to discuss it with the father.

no, but they are usually closely associated

sure, but generally people don't like being lied to, or being kept in the dark about something they care about.

 

Please, this isn't a romance novel, we're discussing real life and real rights and.


I don't mean to be insulting but you sound like you're very young.

There are no "rules" in relationships except for the ones the people IN the relationship make.

You: ""Sure, but again if the person having the abortion also wanted to maintain a relationship with the father, it would serve her best interests then to discuss it with the father.""

Maybe but it's in her best interest to do what SHE thinks is in her best interest. She may decide telling him would ruin the relationship...it wouldn't hurt him not to know..

 

yeah, and?

not an argument

sure, but when 90% of relationships are built on a common set of rules, it seems like a rational conclusion to make to say that those rules help maintain a relationship.

i'm more inclined based on my own personal experience that the prospect of having a child is usually something the father would want to be clued in on.

 

WHERE do you get ""90% of relationships are built on a common set of rules"" ???? From some romance novel?

Then keep it personal....your personal feelings aren't everyone's.

 

It's a hypothesis.

Are you going to tell me that there aren't ground rules that the vast majority of relationships don't operate on?

Again, based on how controversial of an issue abortion is, coupled with the impact of having a child can have on a relationship, i would argue that it is something that the potential father would be very much interested in.

 

I have told you that every couple is different...some I know have "rules', some I know just get along out of respect...there are no rules for rules...

SOME are, SOME aren't.....and no matter how interested they are they are NOT the one who is pregnant so really have NO say about whether a woman gets an abortion or not......they can SAY all they want, it's her decision.

 

most have rules

such rules usually include
1. Don't lie
2. Don't cheat
3. Don't hit

mutual respect is a rule

sure there are!

Anyone emotionally invested in the prospect of a future family would be

I don't know why you keep making this claim when it's obvious that I agree with you.

But if that results in the father then leaving them mother because she didn't tell him, that's more her fault than his.

 

Did you get those rules from observations over your long life?

Some couples do not mind cheating , lying or hitting.... some just expect there will be no cheating ,lying or hitting....did you think it's like a game where the participants sit down and write out "The ROOLS"...

Not always....

Only in your mind....

True and some men are and some men aren't....

No, the woman is only responsible for her own actions, she is not responsible for his...women are not to blame for everything...[/QUOTE]

 

i watch a lot of TV

I honestly fail to see any reason why these wouldn't be pretty much universal given this seems to be how most people want to be treated in general

from what it seems, you're acting like you being older than me somehow means you are therefore more qualified to make a claim regarding relationships than myself, which is really just a baseless appeal to authority.

i could just as easily claim that you're a senseless, out of touch baby boomer, but where would that get us?

they're simply exceptions to the rule. a tiny minority in no way invalidates what i'm claiming

seems like a pretty reasonable expectation really

not an argument

according to western values, it is for a healthy relationship

a relationship where people hit eachother, lie to eachother, and cheat on eachother isn't seen as functional by our society

The minds of most people really. Like, i'm hardly an outlier here.

And I'm talking about relationships with the men who are

Not my claim. But to say that a person deliberately taking actions to upset another person isn't to blame for that person getting upset is just outright stupidity.

 

Which explains why you have unreal ideas on relationships...Here's a stunner for you, things on TV aren't always real.

You can't treat people respectfully without rules? That's sad.

No, it 's a statement from someone with lots more experience than you who didn't learn about life from TV shows

It would make you look childish and uninformed and totally lacking in experiences of life.

You have produced NO actual stats , just your opinion and it doesn't matter how tiny a minority those people are, they prove not everybody NEEDS their little rules to act decently.

So what? it's still the couples choice.

I'm not interested enough to go back and see what all you're addressing here but no, when a woman decides to have an abortion you cannot claim she did it to deliberately upset someone else...YOU have NO way to know her reasons.

...and NO, the only person responsible for getting upset is the person who gets upset...as you age you may learn to control your feelings and then you may know what I'm talking about.

No woman is obliged to do anything just so someone else won't get upset....well, maybe in your little TV land but not in real life.

 

No, but successful TV shows depicting relationships generally are a good indicator of a culture's attitudes towards relationships.

Treating people with respect is the rule. It's like, a moral prior, you know?

I have absolutely zero reason to take your "experience" over anyone else's.

Quite frankly, I don't know you - therefore I can't trust you.

To whom? You? Well I don't really care what you think.

And generally, the childish one is the person who starts making appeals to authority

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...of-infidelity-than-people-in-other-countries/

US - 84% of people view infidelity as unacceptable

From this we can also extrapolate that lying is probably also frowned upon.

Ever heard of the exemption proves the rule?

I'd imagine that this minority would be relationships that fall into a different context than most others.

They in no way disprove a general statement

Not a refutation of my point. If it is a generally true statement that people in relationships don't like to have secrets kept from them, then it is a generally true statement that most fathers would want to know about an abortion before it happened.

If it is understood that she would have known not telling her SO would upset them, then you are deliberately upsetting them, even if it is a side-effect of another reason.

So, in a hypothetical situation, if a person were to get upset if another person were to sexually assault them, it would be their problem?

So we can pretty much agree that all crimes, including rape, are in fact the problem of the victim?

So we're good with victim blaming now? K

You are aware that without human discontent with the status quo, civilization never would have existed?

No, but they in turn have no right to complain if they are left destitute by such actions, now are they?

You do know that was a joke right? Like, I know that you old people are kinda new to this whole Internet culture thing, but irony is a pretty big part of it.

 

And if your life is ruled by the God TV that's fine....but I live in the real world with real people...... with TV's great brainwashing ability you won't understand the difference..

No, it's not a "rule" , it's not written down in gold somewhere, and it is NOT a "moral priority " for everyone...

Ah, youth! Everything is so simple, so totally black and white...

I didn't ask you to...and now that I know you think TV is real life I sure wouldn't try to change YOU mind with facts.


That is answer to "No, it 's a statement from someone with lots more experience than you who didn't learn about life from TV shows ""
Which is a fact

Then, DUH, why do you keep responding to my posts ???

Which I didn't do unless you admit I AM the authority

UH WAIT A MOMENT....I didn't ask for stats on fidelity, I asked for stats on your claim that ALL couples had RULES...that was the question.

The amount of people who view infidelity as unacceptable wasn't in the discussion at all..


...and , "we" can't extrapolate that lying is frowned upon from that...that's not logical at all

No, but I did hear the one about "EXCEPTIONS prove the rule"....as idiotic as any other old saying...why do you like really old stuff so much?

(Shrug) , so what, not everybody does....your squirming now with the " "generally" true" crap... us oldies don't have such a prim and proper carved in stone view of life...we leave being anal about things up to the youngsters..

I'm sorry you can't understand "controlling your own emotions".......but maybe you learned on TV that women are responsible for everything on earth, I don't know...

Yes, being upset over being assaulted of course would be the problem of the victim...WHOSE problem should it be??... a stranger walking down the street should be upset??.WHY would the attacker be upset??? What are you talking about???

What? You think they AREN'T a problem for the victim!! WTF are you talking about...??

OMYGAWD, I haven't seen anyone twist a statement better for such a long time!

I posted : ""...and NO, the only person responsible for getting upset is the person who gets upset""

...and you couldn't face facts so came up with some irrelevant scenarios from what? A TV cartoon?

(Curious that you use a "sexual' assault" and not just an assault)

You are aware that controlling feelings is NOT the same as not having feelings...guess not (and I'm not surprised)

That is in response to my : ""No woman is obliged to do anything just so someone else won't get upset""

There is NO "in turn" to that... Women have no obligation to do anything just so someone doesn't get upset and that does NOT mean she has any OTHER obligations....women have a right to complain if they damn well feel like it...LOL!

Is that another one of your "RooooLs We Must Live By As Seen On TV"

Bet I was selling on eBay before you were born........Gee, "irony" was invented when the Internet was invented? Who knew...!!!

 

Ask any sociologist and I will put down money that they will tell you that any piece of art, including television, very much reflects the cultural norms of a society.

You are aware that socialization is often learned through implicit means, right? In fact, TV is a major source of socialization.

Never claimed that TV was real life, just that the norms and values expressed on TV represent the cultural values of the context they are presented in.

That would be the appeal to authority. You're both claiming to have authority and then claiming that authority somehow makes you right.

A few of my friends joined a few days ago and we've been laughing at posts like yours.

You're making the claim that you're the authority because your older, which is a mentality that's hardly conducive to healthy debate.

1. I never claimed all couples operated on the same rules, just that there was a general trend.
2. Based on this information, it seems like a fair conclusion to come to that "Don't cheat" is a prevalent rule among people in relationships.

Cheating is a form of lying, is it not?

You're not really proving it's wrong though. You're just kinda saying that it's idiotic because it is old, but why does being old = wrong?

Most people do.

Stating facts is "squirming"

wewlad
e
w
l
a
d

When did I claim that this was exclusive to women?

This is probably the most valid thing you've said so far

It would be her problem to overcome her emotions, but she would not be responsible for such emotions arising. That would be the fault of the attacker.

No, I don't. Problem, of course, implying that he/she is the only one at fault in this situation, and not the attacker, for their emotional distress.

I fail to see how it's irrelevant. Based on your argument, if a person was raped, then the emotional trauma that comes from this rape is in fact the fault of the victim being unable to control their emotions and not the rapist.

I am, but if we were in absolute control of our emotions, we would choose to be content with our surroundings and thus nothing would ever change.

You are aware that every action a person takes as a reaction, correct? So yes, there is an "in turn"

Yeah. And therefore, I have no obligation to provide any sympathy for a person who is complaining about a situation they themselves chose to be in.

They have the legal right to complain, but such complaints should not garner any sympathy as they are the result of their own actions.

If you see someone on Youtube shoot themselves in the foot, you don't think "wow, poor guy, he didn't deserve that" you think "wow, what an idiot"

I fail to see how this situation would be any different.

Not my claim. Given how old you are, I'd expect you to be able to read at least a little bit.

 

This is getting boring with all your repetition and TV brainwashing....and your NEED for high school level backup ""A few of my friends joined a few days ago and we've been laughing at posts like yours."

Oh noes! Some kids laugh at old people ! How "original"....too bad your mental gang banging doesn't work on grown ups...especially grown ups who, unlike you, can control how they feel and don't let others influence how they feel


Back to the topic, men have no right to "say" whether anyone should remain pregnant or not...people only get a "say" in pregnancy IF they're the one who is pregnant...

other people are responsible for their own feelings on the subject and mature people realize that.

 

I'm going to guess you've never taken a sociology course before, because you would be aware of what a stupid statement this.

Firstly, it's called socialization, not brainwashing. Everything from your friends, to your parents, to you schools condition you with cultural norms. TV included.

In fact, given that TV is pretty much the most popular form of entertainment in the modern world, it makes sense to claim it plays a huge role in socialization.

Secondly, I am not "brainwashed " to believe what I see on TV is real life like you claim I am. I am very much aware of the effects that mass media has on population. Like I said, TV is a major source of socialization, so the values you see on TV have a high probability of being reflected in its viewers.

You sound pretty triggered rn tbh. Like, you were the one who decided to bring age into this, not me. What does that say about your maturity?

They have every right to voice their opinion on the matter, but yes, the woman is ultimately the one who decides. However, that in no way means a man is forbidden from influencing this decision.

 

Well, ya, if women are considered property it should go all the way...if the Royal Male wants her to abort she must ...

 

In the case of a woman needing a man's permission for an abortion (or anything at all) it's not just losing her right to choose , it's losing all her rights as a human being.

NO one owns anyone, it's against the law....

I agree, no rights have been taken from the father and none should be taken from the pregnant woman...

...but I don't think it's the "HORRIBLE, DREADFUL" occurrence you seem to think...I bet a lot of men give a big sigh of relief so don't feel too sorry for them...

 

That is how Karma works. They are so bossy it will be good for the soul they get bossed back.

 

Gee, no sexism or misogyny there (sarcasm alert)

So women, who you perceive as "bossy", should be punished for being "bossy" by taking away their rights ?

BTW, how are women more bossy than men?

 

How are they not more bossy than men? Have you ever met one?

 

Obviously you've only met one. ..or you wouldn't insist they all are "bossy"..

Try to answer the questions, you should be able to IF you really hold those convictions..:


So women, who you perceive as "bossy", should be punished for being "bossy" by taking away their rights ?

BTW, how are women more bossy than men?

Here's some fun, give an example of a woman being "bossy"

 

They are all bossy. I did not say they should be punished. I said they should be checked. Karma takes care of that.

Women are more bossy than men in every way. That is why none of them are allowed by society to be President. That glass ceiling is for our own protection just like the glass wall at the zoo. If it weren't for that, the gorillas would be clubbing us over the head and dragging us off--especially the female ones.

 

Your fear speaks loudly

Here's what you wanted to avoid :

So women, who you perceive as "bossy", should be punished for being "bossy" by taking away their rights ?


YES, you DO want to punish them for being what you call bossy.

BTW, how are women more bossy than men?

Here's some fun, give an example of a woman being "bossy".

To get back to the topic, do you want men to be bossy and tell a woman whether or not she should have an abortion????

 

Women gets out of bed--she starts being bossy. She is bossy all day. She goes to bed and takes all the covers. There I gave you three examples of women being bossy.

I didn't say anything about punishing women whom I perceive as being bossy. I said they all are and they need to be checked. I can only assume you are a woman or are so scared of them you feel you must defend them or they will beat you down because you know they are bossy too if you have a Y-chromosome.