Discussion in 'Middle East' started by zalekbloom, Apr 25, 2018.
It is based on long time study. I am unaware of any outrages Hamas has done for a very long time. Originally Hamas did not buy the 2 state solution because they did not believe the Israelis were genuine. You can read about that here
It is basically to do with the two State solution. The EU put in Alistaire Crooke and he was working well with them as above link when suddenly one day Jack Straw appeared in the room and told him Bush had pressured Blair who had pressured the German's to stop working to get Hamas ready for talks on a two state solution. This was at a point when Crooke had made great progress and believed he could get Hamas to the table to genuinely work on it. At that very point it was decided instead to declare Hamas a terrorist group - something which would mean they could not be involved in talks which meant there could be no 2 State Solution. Instead they decided that Israel could build more prisons and put Political activists in and hold without trial. They also gave Israel freedom to assassinate Palestinians particularly political leaders which is why they are very thin on the ground and to use her army to wage war against what was basically a guerilla army (Hamas). This was done after Fatah had agreed to police the West bank so that there were no protests having been told that if they did this, they would get their own state.
The accepting of the 2 State Solution made things far harder for Palestinians. Many who had previously worked in Israel lost their jobs as Israel apparently preparing for the Palestinian State. Despite being called Barack's glorious offer in 2000, this was in no way something which the Palestinians could accept. They had already agreed to accept the right of Israel on 78% of their ancient homeland in return for their own viable congruous state on the remaining 22% and this despite what you may have heard, came no where near that and would have left Israeli soldiers inside the so called Palestinian State. There was an offer later at Taba which Arafat agreed could be the basis of discussion but Barak lost his position as PM and it was thrown in the bin - despite it always being blamed on the Palestinians for refusing.
Sharon then went up to Al Aqsa and this enraged the Palestinians. They believed they had been conned with the 2 State solution and the second Intifada began.
So all that had passed by the time Crooke was working with Hamas but the people of Gaza were firing rockets all the time at Israel. Sharon decided to take settlers out of Gaza because it was too expensive looking after them and to build them up instead in the West Bank.
The US decided there should be elections and Hamas won but not enough for an overall majority. The EU, US and everyone else stopped funding to Gaza for voting for Hamas although the US had agreed they could fight in the election. Eventually Hamas managed to create a coalition government. Neither Israel nor the US wanted this so they gave arms to some in Fatah and arranged for them to fight Hamas to take over Government. Sad for them Hamas won. This created a split between the two main Palestinian parties again very helpful for making sure there could be negotiations. Oh when Hamas was fighting the election they said they would be prepared to be in negotiations with Israel re the two state solution. This was before the US had managed to get them declared a terrorist group. Regardless Israel refused to talk to them. No 2 state solution could happen without Hamas.
After some years Crises Group warned Israel that by not speaking to Hamas and giving the people any chance of the siege ending and being able to get an economic life and be part of the world again, people were getting very upset and joining more Salafi type groups. They said if Israel did not talk to Hamas it was very likely they would grow and Gaza would become much more difficult. Israel ignored this and developed a policy of what she calls 'mowing the lawn' in Gaza every few years - that is killing thousands including last time over 500 children. Hamas keeps ISIS out of Gaza. They hate each other. It is a very long time since Hamas, apart from when Israel declares war on them, did anything more ruthless than firing a few rockets which land in fields when Israel has been killing Palestinians so the way the extreme Right talk of Hamas is not true though it is true that Hamas will not lay down arms until there is a workable deal.
Hamas is just a word use to allow Israel to do whatever she wants to the people of Gaza. It was not Hamas who came up with the idea of the Great March. It apparently has been suggested by Gazans for a long time and only after discovering they were going to do it regardless did Hamas get in and police it and so on....but all you here is 'it is Hamas' Everything is Hamas.
The Christian Right of the US are very involved in this. They do not want a two state solution and have been working to make it not so since they heard it was happening. They are 100 million votes in the US and that explains the US policy towards Israel for which they also destroyed the ME with Clean Break.
a few sources This one talks about what I was talking about earlier in that it was when it was obvious that Hamas could be involved in talks for a two state solution, they were declared a terrorist group and the occupation which was supposed to be temporary and to be resulting by 2000 in a State for the Palestinians was made permanent using the excuse of temporariness for Israel to get what she puts more facts on the ground.
The below article is questioning the US's part in destroying the 2 State Solution
The Two-State Solution: An Autopsy
That is by Henry Siegman, an American Jew one time leader of one of their largest Jewish Organisations.
He does not believe Hamas is as portrayed. If you ever get into reading and want to read more, he is a very good read.
I believe throughout Hamas has been used to avoid the two state solution and for Israel to get more land for what the Christian Zionists demand and extremist Israelis also want which is all 'Greater Israel'. The name Hamas allows any violence against the people of Gaza.
This is very rough due to the time I have
I do agree that Hamas has been demonized completely. You claim it is undeserved. The Palestinian civil war and the oppression by the Al-Qassam brigades, would suggest that they are far from the reasonable and innocent political organization you would have us all believe.
OTOH, being Islamist they finally figured out that continually screeching liberation of all of historic palestine was a losing position. So take a page outta mo's book wrt treating with the jews and lie your arse off.
Not that I think for a moment that the Likud regime is at all interested in peace until they've achieved more of their annexation goals in the WB.
It was not Hamas who started the civil war which appears to have been arranged by the Americans. All people have a right to fight for their lives. Vanity Fair had an article on that
and it is also mentioned in this article I left above
By the way I am in no way saying that Hamas is blameless particularly in the early years. What I am suggesting is that Hamas has become the bogey man which allows for Israel to do anything she wants and that by creating Hamas as the bogeyman a way was found to avoid the two state solution.
For every rocket Hamas fires at Israel, Israel should fire one back into Gaza.
I would term myself a Christian Zionist but.........
you might be surprised by this plan that I take quite seriously......
God's Peace Plan for the Holy Land, Hebrew and Arabic.
well your questions tell the truth. You do not know what you are talking about.
For many years Hamas has said they would accept a peace on 67 lines.
which is why it is a cop out when people say just get out and let them get on with it. That clearly is saying just let Israel do what she wants with the Palestinians and is in reality what was decided in 2003.
Israel is the one who is killing the Palestinians and deliberately maiming them for life. Israelis are not the people who live in fear, who need to accept the reality that every day may be their last. They may be struck by a drone or a bomb or shot by an Israeli. However around 30% of 18-35 year old Israelis would be willing to allow Palestinian Refugees to return in the full knowledge that that could be as many as 7,000,000 people so certainly within the youth in Israel there is a sizeable number of people who could work towards a fair and just solution. Some young Israelis have started chatting to the people of Gaza using the internet - where they can see each other when they are talking. Things like this are the greatest healers. People get to know each other and understand much more their situation. The thing that makes the biggest difference as to whether people care about other people is coming in contact with them. Obviously now Israelis rarely come in contact with Palestinians unless on the other end of a gun. I am impressed that young Israelis are taking the effort to do this. Israel is not a democratic country. She has different laws and rights for people dependent on whether they are Jews or Muslims. A democracy has the same rights for all. That is what a democracy is.
Very easily, Israel could & should abide by international law for a change and honor UN Resolution 242 while paying reparations for stolen & destroyed land & property.
However, the Netanyahu Regime has made it clear that it does not want peace(1) & prefers to continue its current policies of ethnic cleansing,(2) provocation & Land Theft(3).
Since these heinous Zionist policies incite so much global outrage, the Netanyahu Regime has chosen to focus on hiring paid Hasbara hucksters to obfuscate Zionist ethnic cleansing rather than mitigating it through peaceful overtures.
"Provoke-then-Massacre" has long been a tactic used by Right Wing Zionist extremists to kill as many of Palestine's native residents as they can get away with then get their Hasbara hirelings to flood the internet with scripted nonsense.
"Moshe Dayan, in his diaries said: "Our strategy was always to provoke the Arabs and get an appropriate response so we could attack and smash them."
(1) "Israel Does Not Want Peace"
EXCERPT "Rejectionism is embedded in Israel's most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone.
Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides.
The single most overwhelming item of evidence of Israel’s rejection of peace is, of course, the settlements project. From the dawn of its existence, there has never been a more reliable or more precise litmus test for Israel’s true intentions than this particular enterprise. In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell."CONTINUED
(2) "Israel Outraged That Countries Object to Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians"
EXCERPT "More specifically, the Security Council passed Resolution 2334 last week, condemning “all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions.”CONTINUED
(3) “New construction plans prove Israel doesn’t want peace”
EXCERPTIn blatant violation of UN Resolution 242, which prohibits the acquisition of land through war and calls for the immediate withdrawal of Israel from all occupied territories, Israel continues to colonize the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It uses the illegal settlements as the justification for the illegal annexation of Palestinian land into Israel.”CONTINUED
Bla, bla bla – bla bla bla. Ethnic cleansing, provocation & Land Theft, heinous Zionist policies and bla, bla, bla, bla…
The fact is that Hamas in his chapter specify that it DOES NOT WANT PEACE with Israel. Instead of investing millions of dollars it is receiving in education and healthcare it invest in attack tunnels and arms.
It burns checkpoints on Israeli border and complains that there are lines on other checkpoints with food delivery.
It burns tires on Israeli border and complains that Israel does not delivery new tires fast enough.
It leaders stay at home, but call to Palestinians to destroy the border fence – and than complain that Israeli army shoots and these vandals.
They burn Israeli agriculture fields and complain that Israel is not sending enough food.
They shoot rockets on Israeli utility facilities and complain that Israel is not sending enough electricity to Gaza.
Every war produced refuges – millions of Germans became refuges in 1945 – today there not no German refuges.
After partition of India in 1947 14 million of people became refuges – today there are none.
So why we still have Palestinians refuges?
I've already resolved this; for every rocket that comes from Gaza, send one back from Israel. FFS is isn't effing rocket science. Well, not quite!
Bingo! You just showed to difference between Jews and Palestinians. While in Israel there many NGO's criticizing treatment of Palestinians, in Gaza and PLO territories there there are many organisations calling for killing Jews and prizing killing all Jews:
Jews want democratic society without any discrimination, equal right to gays and women, why Palestinians want a Muslim county with Sharia Law where infidels will be forced to pay jizya.
No they didn't. Previous Hamas chapters specified that they will never make peace with Israel, maximum they can make a ceasefire. The newest chapter says:
1. The Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” is a Palestinian Islamic national liberation and resistance movement. Its goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project. Its frame of reference is Islam, which determines its principles, objectives and means.
2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras Al-Naqurah in the north to Umm Al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.
So at least let's talk the truth. Hamas wants to destroy Israel and they are very surprised Israelis does not accept Hamas proposition.
I was able to document the fact that the Netanyahu Regime does not want a peaceful resolution & prefers to use their Zionist inspired "Provoke-then-Massacre" to accomplish their goal of eliminating all Palestinians & stealing what is left of their land.
Of course the Palestinians are resisting the oldest, most brutal, foreign funded, foreign Occupation in modern history. Who wouldn't.
Can you name any foreign invasion that has not been resisted by the native residents?
Prior to the invasion of foreign Zionist Terrorist Gangs from Europe, Jews & Arabs got along reasonably well(1) until the invasion of foreign Zionist Terrorist Gangs (Irgun, Stern, Haganah etc).
Since then, Palestine's native non Jewish residents have had their families massacred, homes destroyed & land stolen. Of course they're fighting back with whatever pitiful means they have.
You asked: "So why we still have Palestinians refuges?" in comparison to Germans & Indians.
The difference is that the Germans have Germany & the Indians have India but the foreign Zionist invaders have stolen Palestine only with the aid of distant Western countries.
(1) “Top Ten Myths about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict”
EXCERPT "Myth #1 – Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region.
Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land.
The British Hope-Simpson report of 1930 similarly noted that Jewish residents of non-Zionist communities in Palestine enjoyed friendship with their Arab neighbors. “It is quite a common sight to see an Arab sitting in the verandah of a Jewish house”, the report noted. “The position is entirely different in the Zionist colonies."CONTINUED
I agree with you that Netaniahu desire a peaceful resolution exactly as Hamas or Abu Abbas wants a peaceful resolution.
In the Oslo accord there was Israeli-Palestinian agreement, but after the agreement Palestinians found a new hobby – to explode themselves in Israeli buses or restaurants and Israelis did not like this entertainment, so instead investing in peace talk, they invested in settlements.
There are warmongers on both sides, but there is also a huge difference: when an Israeli soldier killed a wounded Palestinian terrorist – he was sentenced to jail. When a Palestinian terrorists killed an Israeli family and decapitated a three month infant – they were declared heroes and probably they will receive a pension from PLO Authority.
What is lost in most debates about the Israel - Palestine conflict is the basic fact that the Palestinian Arabs, Christian & Muslim, had been living in Palestine for generations BEFORE the invasion of FOREIGN Zionist Terrorist Gangs from Europe who had overwhelming support from foreign Colonial Governments.
In the Occupied Territories & throughout the Islamic Mid East, the Nakba is considered a very recent event & the Palestinians are resisting a brutal, illegal and FOREIGN Occupation with militant Settlers from Brooklyn N.Y. stealing what had been Palestinian land for hundreds of years
The problem for both America & Israel is that Netanyahu & his fellow Zionist Extreme Right Wingers have made it clear that they do not want peace under any reasonable conditions.
Hamas, on the other hand revised it's Charter to accept a State(1) based on UN Resolution 242 which was a step in the right direction but as long as Israeli expansionists continue to build illegal settlements, Hamas is compelled to oppose Settlements through whatever pitiful means possible or else appear weak in the eyes of its people.
Briefly put, the Netanyahu Regime is perfectly delighted to continue killing thousands of Palestinians & stealing their land while the Palestinians have no choice but to resist the longest, most brutal, US funded Occupation in modern history.
(1) "Hamas presents new charter accepting a Palestine based on 1967 borders"
EXCERPT "Hamas has unveiled a new political programme softening its stance on Israel by accepting the idea of a Palestinian state in territories occupied by Israel in the six-day war of 1967.
The new document states the Islamist movement it is not seeking war with the Jewish people – only with Zionism that drives the occupation of Palestine."CONTINUED
Well one way would be by sending in Assassinations squads to hunt down Hamas. Also Wanted Posters could be used for members of Hamas. Of course one could use Mercs too.
I would go with all 3. Declaring Open season on Hamas. Then Telling Hezbollah.....you're next!
Separate names with a comma.