How can we stop the rockets from landing on Sderot, Israel?

REF: How can we stop the rockets from landing on Sderot, Israel?
SUBTOPIC: Opposing View
⁜→ WillReadmore, et al,

BLUF: The Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) has dragged into the 21st Century the focus on territorial claims.

(COMMENT)

The blockade of Gaza Territorial Waters did not start in 2005 when the Israelis unilaterally withdrew. The Blockade went was put into place in January 2009.

​

During the year 2008, over 3000 Rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip. After the January 2009 Blockade went into effect, rocket fire dropped by more than 75%. There was (ten years ago) a direct correlation that could be drawn between rocket fire and blockade enforcement.

​

II. Measures to prevent and combat terrorism. A/RES/60/288 (2006)
The United Nations Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy

We resolve to undertake the following measures to prevent and combat terrorism, in particular by denying terrorists access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:

To strengthen coordination and cooperation among States in combating crimes that might be connected with terrorism, including drug trafficking in all its aspects, illicit arms trade, in particular of small arms and light weapons, including man-portable air defence systems, money-laundering and smuggling of nuclear, chemical, biological, radiological and other potentially deadly materials;​

Adopted by the Security Council, on 28 September 2001. S/RES/1373 (2001)

1. Decides that all States shall:

Prevent the movement of terrorists or terrorist groups by effective border controls and controls on issuance of identity papers and travel documents, and through measures for preventing counterfeiting, forgery or fraudulent use of identity papers and travel documents;​

3. Calls upon all States to:

(a) Find ways of intensifying and accelerating the exchange of operational information, especially regarding actions or movements of terrorist persons or networks; forged or falsified travel documents; traffic in arms, explosives or sensitive materials; use of communications technologies by terrorist groups; and the threat posed by the possession of weapons of mass destruction by terrorist groups;​

(COMMENT)

The fact of the matter is, that I do not see in the current Policy of the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) that this is a legacy issue at all. It is very much a part of the HoAP 21st Century Policy.

I went (today) to the Palestine National Council (PNC) and Charter (still current and on their website) and the HAMAS General Principles and Policies, and they agree:

◈ (PNC) Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.​

◈ (HAMAS): Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras Al-Naqurah in the north to Umm Al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit

These are very much issues of the 21st Century because the HoAP makes them so. There is no reasonable expectation that the HoAP is going to let this go. And this should be made clear to everyone, that still in the background of the policy, the mantra remains: From the River to the Sea.


Most Respectfully,
R



.

 

How do you think that the shot count from those you slaughter with FAR superior weapons and far more of them could POSSIBLY form a justification for Israel's humanitarian atrocities?

Do you somehow think Palestinians will surrender their property, their families, their farms, their political representation, everything they own because you are offended by their missile count? Do you think THEY are not offended by YOUR missile count?

You say things like the above and others do too, but I really don't believe you have an actual explanation.

 

REF: How can we stop the rockets from landing on Sderot, Israel?
SUBTOPIC: Opposing View
⁜→ WillReadmore, et al,

(COMMENT)

This is a two-part question, so the answer comes in two parts.

◈ The differential in the superiority in weaponry.

✦ There is nothing fair about war or military conflicts and confrontations. The decision to engage in acts of war against any nation has its consequences. One of those consequences is facing the opponent's superiority in weaponry and the expected military outcome. That is a conscious decision made by the aggressor initiating the conflict.

✦ The decision by the opponent to use its superiority in weaponry against a less advanced offensive opponent is not at issue. An aggressor attacking with a Musket and black power does not require the defender with machine guns and high-velocity ammunition to step back in history to build inferior weapons in order to face the opponent fairly. The question is - at what intensity should the defender with superior weaponry engage the enemy?
​

◈ The differential in the superiority in weaponry and the question of intensity in the conflict is a dilemma faced by the technologically superior opponent (TSO).

✦ The TSO must solve the ethical question of risk.

✧ Does the TSO temper the intensity of fire to reduce the inferior opponent's casualty rate?
✧ Does the TSO place at risk its own military casualty rate in order to assume the moral high ground?
✧ Does the TSO risk an increase in civilian casualties when it could have reduced the risk by increasing the level of intensity?
​

✦ The TSO must address the question of extending the duration of the conflict.

✧ Does the TSO merely settle for the short-term solution of suppressing the attack of the moment?
✧ Does the TSO reduce the duration of the conflict by increasing the intensity - thereby inflicting such the enemies devastation to an unrecoverable level?​

There are more questions on the moral and ethical levels in the deliberations of conflict resolution. But these are the two sets that address your specific question.

(COMMENT)

This is a matter of perspective. Again two questions are at hand.

◈ Generalized Complaints:​

✦ The "surrender" of both real and personal property is a consequence of some egregious action by the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) on behalf and with the direct and indirect support of the general population.

✦ The apprehension and or imprisonment of the citizenry is based on either domestic law or prosecutions taken under Article 68 of the Fourth Geneva Convention [Protected Persons (Arab Palestinians) who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power (Israelis).]

✦ Political representation and participation in establishing self-governing institutions have been rejected many times by the Arab Palestinians.​

◈ Fallacious Complaints:​

When the Arab Palestinians make an appeal to accept their claim merely because the appeal arouses your feelings of anger, fear, grief, love, outrage, pity, pride, sexuality, sympathy, relief, and so forth, we call this an Appeal to the Emotion. This fallacy is a kind of error in reasoning.​

(COMMENT)

I am confused! To what expression do you want an "explanation?" Not all issues presented in the name of the Arab Palestinian have an explanation that is agreeable to the greater Palestinian community. And certainly, I can't explain everything that is raised.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

That didn't address the question.

You even point out that there is a war going on. And, you recognize that there is a stupendous technological gap.

Yet, Israel continues to whine about the pathetic weapons Gaza uses.

Yes, they can't even be AIMED well.

Given Israel's refusal to netogitate, given their refusal to even state what a solution could possibly be, it really hits me as ridiculous for Israel to complain about the low tech and weak nature of Gaza's fire power.

?? Israel is carrying out ethnic cleansing against West Bank. That is a consequence of NOTHING that Palestine is doing.

This is more total absurdity. Ethnic cleansing is a humanitarian crime. And, it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the security of Israel.

This is totally irrelevant. Abbas has made SERIOUS efforts to demonstrate a direction of self-goverrning and in joining the greater world community of nations. They have opened themselves to the UN and all its branches. They have worked with the IDF to fight against terrorism - a move clearly and repeatedly recognized by the IDF even to the extent that the IDF rescinded arms restrictions that had prevented Abbas forces from opposing terrorists.

Palestine has absolutely NOT rejected the establishment of self-governing institutions. It HAS rejected the notion of being ruled by the foreign military law in which they have zero representation.

You really need to explain what you are talking about on this one.

Am I supposed to accept that as having relavence in this post?

You should be able to defend the statements that

 

REF: How can we stop the rockets from landing on Sderot, Israel?
SUBTOPIC: Opposing View
⁜→ WillReadmore, et al,

(COMMENT)

Whether you are killed with a Civil War-era 24-pounder Howitzer by blind luck - or - a 21st-century guide weapon → you are just as dead. The "stupendous technological gap" makes no real difference to the casualties or attempt to inflict casualties. Whether you are burned to death by fires started in a salvo of flaming arrows, or napalm dropped from altitude the death and destruction is real.

I showed you the applicable International Law on the use of these improvised incendiary weapons in Posting #176 supra.

(COMMENT)

The targetability lumination and control of the devices are really unimportant. It is covered by one or more of the following:

FIRST: Rule 6. Civilians are protected against attack, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities.
SECOND: Rule 11. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited.
THIRD: Rule 17. Each party to the conflict must take all feasible precautions in the choice of means and methods of warfare with a view to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
FOURTH: Article 8 Para 2e War Crimes • Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court

(e) Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in armed conflicts not of an international character, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

(i) Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;​

(COMMENT)

"Given Israel's refusal to netogitate,"??? you've got to be kidding me.

The Permanent Status of Negotiations (PSN) has been an option since the Oslo Accords were signed. In February 2005, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, PLO Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, and King Abdullah of Jordan met in Sharm el-Sheikh (Egyptian Southern Sinai Governorate) and agreed (in my paraphrased language) to a complete ceasefire. Of course, that never happened. While the ceasefire held in the West Bank and reasonably well in Jerusalem, the hostile fire never ceased from the Gaza Strip. See the chart of Rocket Fire in Posting #176. And HAMAS and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) do not deny this.

The only times that the Israelis refused to attend a negotiation to further peace and security is when the Hostile Arab Palestinians required the Israelis to make some concession as a prerequisite for the meeting.

(PERSPECTIVE)

While there are similarities between ethnic cleansing and genocide, absent the intention to destroy an ethnic group and not merely members of that group or to dissolve it, ethnic cleansing does not amount to genocide: Genocide Convention Cases 2007 ICJ (Paragraphs 188-190)

(COMMENT)

The use of the terminology "ethnic cleansing" did not come into prominence until the Yugoslav conflict (Bosnia and Herzegovina) in the 1990s. I could not find any use of that terminology until Resolution A/RES/47/80 • Ethnic Cleansing and Racial Hatred... The terminology - "Ethnic Cleansing" does not appear anywhere in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. This terminology is political theater used by Arab Palestinian Drama Queens. The correct terminology for what the HoAP complaint centers on is: Rule 129. The Act of Displacement.

Name a specific "displacement." Where and when? It is hard for me to discuss these hypotheticals and broad brush applications. Where did it happen. In this location, did the Israelis have full civil and security authority?

(COMMENT)

There is a difference between actually establishing self-governing institutions and just giving the appearance of working in that direction.

Name one single member of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) that the Palestinian Authority (PA) has apprehended, prosecuted, and incarcerated. However, the PA will give stipends and make payments in the name of known terrorists.

[quote="Palestinian Authority Pays $42,000 to Family of Terrorist Who Murdered Israelis]
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Sunday ordered the family of a Palestinian terrorist who murdered two Israelis be paid $42,000 and gifted new houses after their home was demolished by the Israeli military.
SOURCE: Breitbart News Network • DEBORAH BRAND • 7 Jun 2021
[/quote]

Most Respectfully,
R

 

Most Respectfully,
R[/QUOTE]
Yes, a lot of what Gaza is doing in fighting back against Israel's war against them is considered illegal by international law. I've agreed with that from the start, yet you keep bringing that up as if it isn't TOTALLY known. WHY? Is that factoid all you've got??

After all, they do not have the technology to fight back in a legal manner. And, that doesn't mean they are going to stop fighting back.

Besides, please note that the whole "it's so illegal" comment is totally off the OP topic.

And, your accusations against the Palestinian government border on nasty as opposed to facutal.

The government of Abbas has actually worked WITH the IDF to stop terrorism and has dedicated itself to peaceful means exclusively. And, again, his government has been assessed as a legitimate government.

Gaza's government attempted to JOIN that government, eschewing violence as a method of resolution, but Netanyahu worked strongly to PREVENT that move. Tell me why. From what I can detect, it appears that a unification would make continuing the war politically harder for Israel.

In the context of ending Israel's war against Palestine, Netanyahu has bneen absolutely and totalliy UNINTERESTED in ANY resolution to the war, preferring to assault Gaza with modern technological methods of slaughter that Gaza can not oppose and by ethnic cleansing in West Bank, a project totally aimed at stealing land for profit.

If this war is to end, there is one fundamental requirement - Israel has to want that.

And, I see absolutely NO sign that there are even SLIGHTLY interested in this war ending. They LIKE the war.

 

Yes, Israel destroys the HOMES of families of those who commit terrorist acts.

The USA and other first world nations see this as having no legitimacty.

Compensating those who are punished by a foreign military for the crimes of some family member is perfectly reasonable.

 

REF: How can we stop the rockets from landing on Sderot, Israel?
A Good and Lively Discussion in a Civilized Manner. Well Done!
⁜→ WillReadmore, et al,

And there we have it. You have your opinion and I have mine.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

True!! And, appreciated, too.

I'm still interested in the OP, though.

I haven't seen a solution for stopping the war.

Even if Gaza decided to give up and fire no more rockets it would not end the war Israel is waging against them.

And, nothing Abbas can do will stop Israel from continuing ethnic cleansing in West Bank, let alone gain recognition of statehood from Israel and a legitimate border within which Palestine governs.

So far, the only hope seems to be from pressure from nations that decide that peace in the ME is important and that they stand for issues such as representation, rule of law, equality before the law, and other such principles.

 

Here is like a chess game for you that could potentially lead to peace between Israel and the Palestinian Authority......

1. Israel organizes a class action lawsuit against Bill Gates, wins the case, and ends up in possession of real estate owned by Gates... in other nations other than the Palestinian Authority.

Should Israelis begin discussion of a Class Action Lawsuit against Bill Gates?

2. A plan is put into effect where young men living in the West Bank are trained to become workers who spend at least a part of the year in that other nation where the farmland is that Israel soon becomes owners of.

3. Jobs are created in turning deserts green as opposed to one of the only careers available to young men living in the West Bank and Gaza..... (the government there pays people to become terrorists and if they get killed while performing a terrorist act their families are actually well taken care of afterwards).



PA to Reward Terrorists' Families in 'Blatant' Defiance of Taylor Force Act

 

There is absolutely NOTHING in that for which I have ANY respect.

You're still working on a plan to steal the rest of Palestine from the people of Palestine.

Your "sue Bill Gates" could not be more ludicrous.

Your constant assault on Palestinians is just plain pathetic.

Gaza has plenty of potential to be a wealthy nation with plenty of jobs. Nobody needs to give them jobs. They need an end to the war that Israel has been waging against them continuously for decades. They are not even allowed to fish their waters. They are not allowed to EXPORT!! They are not allowed access to their natural resource wealth. Netanyahu has promised they will NEVER be free - which is admission of a humanitarian crime.

Nobody needs to "help" Gaza - they can be fully self sufficient and prosper. What's needed are the rights that the USA has codified in it's own founding documents as belonging to ALL people.

Then, just to PROVE your pathetic understanding of the situation you choose to ignore the ethnic cleansing that is what Palestinians fight against, the fact that Israel hires mercenaries to enforce Israeli military law on Palestinians living in Palestine - where they have no representation in that law, the fact that Palestinians get their orchards destroyed and their homes bulldozed at the whim of a foreign power.

THAT is state sponsored terrorism, carried out by terrorists PAID as the EMPLOYEES of Israel.

THAT is a gigantic humanitarian atrocity for which Netanyahu and others in government should be prosecuted, as it includes the deaths, destitution and disenfranchisement of millions of Palestinians.

 

Thank you......
coming from you I will take that as a compliment.....
because it appears to me that you believe in a high percentage of the stated goals of Mr. Bill Gates.....
whereas I disagree with Gates and other Malthusians rather vehemently.


http://www.politicalforum.com/index...it-against-bill-gates.591367/#post-1072914466

Should Israelis begin discussion of a Class Action Lawsuit against Bill Gates?

 

You're going all over the board now.

Bill Gates did NOT call for depopulation. So, stop saying that. Population GROWTH decreases when the population prospers. Encouraging circumstances where people's lives improve, thus leading to less population growth is an incredibly good thing.

One significant problem with climate change is that it impacts world agriculture in a negative way, leaving more locations unable to sustain their population. We see this in Bangladesh and other places today. And, let's remember that the food problem TODAY is one of distribution, not of production. So, when a country can't feed itself, the fact that others CAN feed themselves does NOT provide a solution.

Your "sue Bill Gates" thing could not be more stupid. You have provided NO reason for being upset at Bill Gates.

The primary problem of unrest in the ME remains that of ISRAEL. Not only is it a problem in its own right, but it causes farther reaching negative action. OBL used Israel as a recruiting tool for his terrorist forces in other countries. The policy of the US toward Israel is constantly used as proof that we do NOT stand for what we claim to stand for, and thus our claims must be ignored. Egypt went the way of the Muslim Brotherhood BECAUSE ever policy that looked like something America has said was considered absolutely unacceptable FOR THAT REASON.

NOTHING Trump did changed that in ANY way. Israel still believes it is fine to ethnically cleansing Palestine and holding Gaza as an open air prison - a clear and universally recognized act of war that has continued for decades.

Trump STRONGLY supported those crimes.

And, the USA support for that PROVES we do NOT stand for the principles we claim to stand for, and thus can NOT be trusted.

 

The most SHOCKING aspect of your post is that you posted a TINY fraction of the Bill Gates Ted Talk and chose the portion that he showed almost zero interest in changing, with the only change coming from making people's lives better.

YET YOU posted that as a justification for dumping OUTRIGHT HATE on Bill Gates!!!

What the hell, Dennis? This is NOT an honest approach. Plus, it is a total distraction for the important content that Gates presented.

His talk was almost entirely focused on the need for breakthroughs in energy production.

You seriously need to explain yourself, as this hits me as an actual issue of your credibility.

 

Good point....
here is the full lecture that that portion has been taken out of.

 

Thanks.

I listened to that speech years ago when it was first given.

But, linking the full speech doesn't explain your hatred for Gates, nor does it relate to your "water the desert" idea for which I can find NO support in the world of science.

 

If you have the free time to research this you will begin to see why I am so disappointed with the angle that Bill has taken on all of this.

I hope for the sake of the eight billion residents of this third rock, (and also much cattle)... I hope that Ms. Melinda Gates ends up with eighty percent or more of his wealth...... but..... Israelis should get a big chunk for what he did through some of the BigPharma companies he owns.



Gates sure did make a mess with farming in Africa and India.

 

This vid has ZERO VALUE of any kind.

It is a pure hate piece.

The problem with these hate pieces is that they are FACT FREE.

For example, all Gates did was donate money. There is NO claim that Gates stands to gain anything. There is NO indication of any corruption.

And, this crappy hate piece states not one tiny indication of fact concerning what is to be gained.

Besides, it isn't even clear that the claims about GMO are real:
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Afr...Zimbabwe.-Now-to-see-if-there-is-such-a-thing

As for mosquitoes, the solution in many cases has been to spray with chemicals that seriously impact humans as well as mosquitoes.

The fact that the experiment didn't work as planned is not some sort of conviction of the crime of trying.

Again, there is no indication of conspiracy in ANY WAY.

I'm REALLY SICK of you constantly posting pure HATE, carefully ignoring the fact that the claims being made are false, that there is no conspiracy in ANY of it, and that the magnitude of the problems being addressed is gigantic and very worth attempting to reduce.

In NO case do your hate pieces describe ANY of the issues regarding the motivations for these attempts at saving lives. And, your hate pieces even work to identify only cases where attempts can be presented as not being successful.

At NO time does it mention the scale of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation donations to Africa in terms of health and economics.

I can not tell you in words how disgusting I see this totally unfounded hate direction to be.

 

Last week I noticed that the Gazan terror orginazation called Hamas fired rockets at Israel.
Again.
Israel should eliminate Hamas.

 

How do you propose to do that? The same method Hitler tried on them?

 

REF: How can we stop the rockets from landing on Sderot, Israel?
SUBTOPIC:
⁜→ WillReadmore, et al,

PREFACE: I was just over at a friends home, and at 70 years of age → I (sometimes) play better with the12 and 13 year olds than I do with their parents. We were in the basement where his father a rather large and evelated (O scale. Lionel) train set platform. There was a curve that required the train to slow to a crawl. If he went too fast (as kids do) a box car or two would jump the track. Jason (his son) had built this using and this using an adhesive called "Bondic" that is a fast-acting hardening solution under a UV light. He had me slow the train and he set his solution together to the track. And as the train approached it, the cars that jumped the tracks would right themselves. This solution obfuscated the need to stop the train and manually pick the train cars up and onto the tracks.

Some political-military (POL-MIL) solutions are like that. The solution requires inventive and imaginative solutions to rectify the situation. I thought (just maybe) "WillReadmore" was right on the verge of a modified POL-MIL solution, but then stopped.

(COMMENT)

The Principles of international law relating to friendly nations should do the heavy lifting when dealing with POL-MIL issues of an asymmetric nature. But we are reminded that the traditional thinking and cookie-cutter diplomats produced out of Georgetown or The Kennedy School (Harvard) simply do not cut it anymore.

Often asymmetric problems require new asymmetric solutions. Asymmetric solutions come from dynamic leaders, and it appears that one has not arisen since the turn of the century.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

You can't stop Palestinians fighting for their people, land and freedom. Putin can't also stop Ukrainians to resist Russian aggression. If the aggressors don't withdraw or being destroyed, there will be an endless war.

Resisting injustice is a duty coming directly from God.

 

REF: How can we stop the rockets from landing on Sderot, Israel?
SUBTOPIC: Who is the foreign fighting whom for what?
⁜→ PitBull, OP, et al,

FOREWORD: Some points of contention are simply incapable of producing any useful and positive result. Some outcomes ate fate to the coming times. Some outcomes will be about events beyond the control of the participants in the discussion. And still, others' paths may be steps beyond that which can be determined by the most capable thinkers of our time.

(COMMENT)

Well first, let us straighten out your conjecture. Palestinians are fighting over sovereignty that was never in their hands. Fighting over land is something (on the order of that similar to) fighting over personal property. And that is clearly explained in the most recent Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) Policy and the Palestinian National Charter (Articles 1 and 2). HAMAS "is a Palestinian Islamic national liberation and resistance movement. Its goal is to liberate Palestine and confront the Zionist project. Its frame of reference is Islam, which determines its principles, objectives and means."

There is a Religious driven component and a British outlined territory over which the culture wants supreme authority. They like to shroud it in a political tolerance driver that is rebelling against foreign oppression, but that is not it. IF the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) were to take back that which has been Israeli sovereign for the past three-quarters of a century, THEN the Israeli would call the HoAP the foreign oppressor. The Israelis would have lived on the territory for longer then any (98%) HoAP fighting to take the sovereignty. Do the math. Compare the Israeli period of possession to the life span of an Arab Palestinian who was born after May 1948.

I guess they don't teach that in HoAP elementary school. Ask any one fighting on the Hostile or pro-Palestinian side, any one of those appearing in the videos against Israel on the last year.

(COMMENT)

I'm not sure about all the fcts in the Ukrainian Conflict, but I will venture to say that those defending the Ukraine were (99%) born in the Ukraine. The Israeli Palestinian Conflict is the exact opposite.

Those were some times.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

They lived there for some centuries. Zionists claim it's their land and try to drive them out violently. So both went to war.

Yeah, and this component gives much strength to both parties. Both believe that God promised them the holy land. One big problem is that Jews do not accept the Qur'an as God's final revelation.

That's true, bro. Most Israeli citizens are descendants of Holocaust survivors from eastern Europe. That makes it particularly difficult for them to claim rights to their ancestral lands.

 

No, that certainly does NOT mean they both want war.

Palestinians want to live in their homes, vote for their leaders, etc., just like everyone on Earth.

No people surrenders their homes, their agriculture, their water rights without a fight.

Much of Palestine is ruled by foreign military law in which Palestinians have NO representation.

>>>What did our founders decide when they were not allowed representation??