'How dare you': Greta Thunberg tears into world leaders over inaction at U.N. climate summit

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Space_Time, Sep 23, 2019.

  1. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Interesting.
    I have demonstrated that the resources exist to transit from filthy fossil to clean green ASAP, the transition being funded via central banks buying and nationalising the energy sector (as stated by the BIS)....since the private sector market ALONE can never achieve the transition, while ongoing addition of zero marginal cost green energy to the grid causes market prices achievable by energy producers to collapse, preventing further investment in green without massive increases in carbon taxes...).

    And so you decide to fall back on rhetoric re "free markets", "Freedom" "Liberty", "Rights", compared with "Master Planners" etc.

    In conjunction with mainstream neoliberal economists, they HAVE been running the show even under Trump, who is not a fiscal conservative, but his central banker, Powell, is.

    So I don't accept the premise on which you launch your following Libertarian rhetoric.

    Either an ever-increasing carbon tax, or nationalisation as outlined above, is needed if we are to transition from Fossil to Green.

    So I'm with Greta, even while I'm not convinced by the CO2 issue; what's not to like about zero marginal cost sustainable green energy?

    Of course you cannot answer, because it violates your Libertarian principles. (or your mainstream classical economics).
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  2. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Well, you have asserted it, the US is never going to nationalize the energy sector, further, if Green Power is so "cheap" in Austrailia why are you asking for a government bailout in the wake of malinvestment? Further, "Green" power, isn't. It's a landfill nightmare.
    It will easily achieve the transition desired by The People.
    If it's such a "success" why do you need "carbon taxes"? "zero marginal cost "green" energy is a joke. Did you read your own link that you posted?

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04...ment-maybe-heading-from-boom-to-bust/11041964

    You're welcome to make your own choices, for you, you will not make my choices for me.

    "Green" Energy isn't green it's a disposal nightmare. Discarded solar panels are piling up all over the world, and they represent a major threat to the environment.

    A new study by Environmental Progress (EP) warns that toxic waste from used solar panels now poses a global environmental threat. The Berkeley-based group found that solar panels create 300 times more toxic waste per unit of energy than nuclear power plants. Discarded solar panels, which contain dangerous elements such as lead, chromium, and cadmium, are piling up around the world, and there’s been little done to mitigate their potential danger to the environment. You can't generate competitively now, you wave your hand and say "recycle" but the costs of that are not currently included in your misleading generation cost figures.

    Solar panels are an enormous toxic, hazardous electronic or “e-waste.” Scavengers in developing countries like India and China burn the e-waste in order to salvage the valuable copper wires for resale. This process burns off plastic, the resulting smoke contains toxic fumes that are carcinogenic and teratogenic (birth defect-causing) when inhaled while Greenies self-righteously pat themselves on their "green" energy ignoring the human and animal birth defects from teratogens.
    [​IMG]

    It's well-known that solar panels have only a 25 year life and are intricately constructed from a variety of materials, making it difficult to disassemble and recycle them. Japan is already scrambling for ways to reuse its mounting inventory of solar-panel waste, which is expected to exceed 10,000 tons by 2020 and grow by 700,000 to 800,000 tons per year by 2040. Solutions are hard to find, due both to the labor-intensive process of breaking down the panels and to the low price of scrap. It is a crime against nature to fill the world with these toxins and poisons and the height of irresponsibility to demand that this be funded by unaccountable Central Banks.

    The U.S. has more than 1.4 million solar-energy installations now in use, including many already near the end of their 25-year lifespan. Irresponsible Federal, State governments, and Activists have refused to ensure disposal and recycling policies by requiring them in purchase price because they want conceal the massive environmental threat posed by their purported climate-change panacea. Americans with solar roofs produce 30 to 60 percent more electronic waste than non-solar households.

    In addition there is the vast environmental damage done by making solar panels in the first place. A 2013 investigation by the Associated Press found that from 2007 to 2011, the manufacture of solar panels in California “produced 46.5 million pounds of sludge and contaminated water. Roughly 97 percent of it was taken to hazardous waste facilities throughout the state, but more than 1.4 million pounds were transported to nine other states.” AP reported that it would take “one to three months of generating electricity from the solar panels to pay off the energy just used up driving those hazardous waste emissions out of state.”

    There is nothing environmentally responsible about remaining silent while smug self-righteous hucksters demand public financing so they can skim off the funding while creating mountains of hazardous waste.

    Use your OWN financing, learn to generate efficiently while cleaning up after yourselves, and ease up on the virtue signalling, nobody is that impressed with it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  3. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I went around my house and collected all the hats, then put them all on. Then took them all off, to you.

    Thank you. Couldn't possibly have said it better.
     
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  4. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Give me one example of a BUSINESS that does not seek profit. Hint: tap dancing on your back deck is not business.

    Meantime, if you're NOT factoring in the bottom, any claims of compassion are mere vanity.
     
  5. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why don't they fly this little witch to China where she is badly needed?
     
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    China only keeps making all the crap because Westerners keep demanding it. Yes, their manufacturing practices need work, but that would be merely a band-aid. The real solution is for Westerners to stop buying the crap - so in that sense Greta has the right target audience.

    Problem is that she's not telling them to stop buying the crap. Which is odd, given her support comes from the very demographic (white and middle-class) which has the heaviest footprint. She should be spitting "How dare you continue with your profligate lifestyles!", but she isn't.
     
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  7. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    My nomination for Non Sequitur of the Month.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    :banana:
     
  9. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My point was she should castigate China with her sneers and hateful judgmental attitude as to the careless pollution they cause. Of course the little witch might find herself in a camp in that country....so she comes here instead.
     
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  10. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Apparently she is quite satisfied with China, one of the world's grossest polluters, while quite dissatisfied with the US, one of the very cleanest nations in the world. But, why kid ourselves, she repeats the words of the adults that exploit with no understanding of her claims. The "Green" movement has very little to do with the environment, and a great deal about arrogating coercive government power.
     
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  11. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Spiteful blah, blah, blah towards a little girl that has lit a large-fire under an issue (the world's climate) that is the centerpiece of mankind's existence on earth.

    And you castigate her as a "witch"?

    Go have your head examined .... !

    PS: If it was up to you, you'd send her to Wuhan - right?
     
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  12. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Weird how its folks with far more profligate lifestyles than we enjoy who lecture us on how we should embrace much greater austerity. If they truly believed in a pending crisis, they would rein in their own lives of excess.
     
  13. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    This is what I call the “dirty bedroom excuse”

    “But Muuuuuuuum! Billy’s bedroom is dirtier than mine and HIS mother doesn’t make him clean HIS up!”

    Sound familiar?

    Bottom line

    It is not about them

    It is about all of us being responsible for leaving the planet in at least reasonable shape for the next generations
     
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  14. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Is she? Do you have a link to where she has said those exact words?
     
  15. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, it does! My sister continuously railed against me for my "lack of tidiness". Foolishly, I thought "boys had different rules about tidiness". (Marriage helps change that attitude!)

    Yes, I'll grant you that it's all about "us" being responsible for the state-of-the-planet. Still, the rumor-mill has it that "what's at the bottom" (meaning in school today) and what the politicians are doing about it are very, very different.

    The reason? High-schoolers don't vote! That is, the voting age - I think - in the US is 18. Which means that many can indeed vote and perhaps change is coming. We shall see ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ABOUT VOTING IN AMERICA

    From here: Trends in party affiliation
    To my mind, it is the ambivalent "middle-grounders" (who swing either way) that constitute for the most part "election results". (Which hurt most Hillary in certain "swing states". She nonetheless won the popular-vote and should be PotUS instead of Donald Dork ...)
     
  17. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Only a hopeless ideologue could write those words.

    The Green movement has EVERYTHING to do with the environment, whether local or global.

    How the Greens propose to deal with their environmental concerns is what has you in a lather, because such proposals of necessity require government intervention/regulation, or outright displacement of private markets, whether at the local or global level (god forbid,.....fancy having to implement polices that require global co-operation and co-ordination....).

    Are you channelling crank? I presume the people with "far more profligate lifestyles" refers to people in your own country, but recently you were chastising China for being the filthiest nation on the planet, and that they need to get their own house in order despite much lower average wealth in China.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  18. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    AUNT SAMANTHA?

    Yes! And your comment makes me smile.

    I don't know what this means on a larger scale; that is, the "inbred" (in women!) historical acceptance of male-dominance perpetrated since the dawn of time (as we know it).

    But, I am hoping that the rise of women to higher levels of management (in both business and politics) will give sufficient evidence to females that they deserve "their chance at career success (and the failure that often comes with that opportunity)". Women must simply persevere at the task of imposing themselves politically and businesswise. Instead of just walking away in disgust.

    Male dominance has been the Societal Norm for a great long time. And one of the reasons that males employed wars to obtain wealth. Which (once upon a time) meant wars to obtain land and subduing the conquered to produce food. Yes, of course, those times are behind us - but not universally. (Land is still fought over in the lesser developed nations.)

    In effect, throughout "modern history" wealth linked to land-rights goes back to the origins of humanity on earth. Some historians say that since men were the hunters that brought home the food the "weaker sex" was obliged to follow submissively.

    The world needs a change. And it's coming. Slowly, slowly - but determinedly. Some women have shown the way. Merkel in Germany is the latest of that breed here in Europe. Others as well. The new head of the European Union administration is a female, nominated by a male, but voted into office by the European Parliament. At present, 40% of the European Parliament consists of female elected representatives.

    As for the US, the breakdown is reported officially here: Women in Congress. Statistics

    It is inevitable that they take their place at the helm of decision-making whether economic or political. (But Uncle Sam has a way to go before becoming Aunt Samantha ... ;^)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  19. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    1. As the world's factory, china manufactures more than crap (ask apple).

    2. Indeed, if the entire globe stopped manufacturing and advertising crap, and diverted the resources thus released into constructing solar/wind backed by pumped hydro backup, we could finally achieve zero marginal cost energy around the entire globe.....in years, not decades.

    And have nice green transport (whether public or private), nice housing (public or private), access to nice IT, good clothing and good food.
    Austerity not required (especially with zero marginal cost energy powering industry).
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  20. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Of course.



    But we now know women can be as ideological as men, so gender itself won't save us....
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  21. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

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    Ah bless Greta
    [​IMG]

    For years America and Europe sold China our "Recycling" so we could feel good about ourselves.

    Then China landfilled nearly all of it because they don't give a ****, it was all a game, they took our crap in exchange for selling us more crap. China no longer takes our recycling and we are landfilling it again which makes it a joke they are making us sort it.

    There should be a deposit on cans & bottles that really does work for recycling, the real issue is sorting plastics.

    We should also burn all other plastic that's too much hassle to recycle, we have ways to burn it cleanly plastic is just another form of hydrocarbons, burning it for a fuel source is nearly always more efficient and making virgin plastic with oil than recycling using our present methods. Transporting materials thousands of miles to recycle them has it's own tailpipe people conveniently forget.

    Anyone that honestly believes the Green New Deal is about anything other than forcing communism on us is a fool.

    Big business will be how we go carbon neutral and hydrocarbons are not going away.

    How we produce them will change though, biofuels, synthesized from seawater capturing to co2 is by far the highest energy cost here but you can grow plants, burn the biomass to capture co2 the higher concentrations make it much more practical and more importantly financially viable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  22. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Communism died long ago with Stalin and Mao Tse-tung. On which planet do you live?

    Some plastics are recyclable, so using them for packaging is possible. We just need a worldwide agreement on recycling such materials - meaning making them illegal for export unless produced as recyclable.[/quote]

    Get used to it - I'm not going anywhere whilst so many plant misguided posts here.

    We SHOULD NOT BURN PLASTIC (which simply pollutes the planet)! Duhhhhhhhhh!

    We should not even bury plastics. We need only direct that recyclable plastics must be employed! Yes, that is possible. See here: Plastic recycling

    Liberty? I'll bet you don't even know its real definition. You THINK childishly it means "the ability do anything I damn well fell like doing!" Well, no! And certainly not "just anything".

    There must be rules on behaviour or societies fall apart from misbehaviour!

    Monkey? Potentially debatable. Try harder ...
     
  23. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Communism died long ago with Stalin and Mao Tse-tung. On which planet do you live?

    Some plastics are recyclable, so using them for packaging is possible. We just need a worldwide agreement on recycling such materials - meaning making them illegal for export unless produced as recyclable.[/quote]

    Get used to it - I'm not going anywhere whilst so many plant misguided posts here.

    We SHOULD NOT BURN PLASTIC (which simply pollutes the planet)! Duhhhhhhhhh!

    We should not even bury plastics. We need only direct that recyclable plastics must be employed! Yes, that is possible. See here: Plastic recycling

    Liberty? I'll bet you don't even know its real definition. You THINK childishly it means "the ability do anything I damn well fell like doing!" Well, no! And certainly not "just anything".

    There must be rules on behaviour or societies fall apart from misbehaviour!

    Monkey? Potentially debatable. Try harder ...
     
  24. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    She's lit a large fire???.......among liberals caught up in the emotion of climate change?? She is a pawn of the left. It's wealth redistribution her handlers are after and nothing more. If they position themselves right, a lot of it will fall right into their lap. Socialist elite always counts on that.
     
  25. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    https://www.cnet.com/news/if-renewable-energy-can-power-entire-countries-why-isnt-everyone-doing-it/

    If renewable energy can power entire countries, why isn't everyone doing it?


    A country getting all its electricity from a combination of wind, solar and hydro sounds like science fiction. It's not.

    "Pumped hydro is a technology that's been around considerably longer [than batteries] at a much greater scale and is actually a much cheaper way of storing energy," said ANU's Stocks.

    If we could build enough of these pumped hydro stations as backup for the variability of solar and wind power, Stocks said, Australia could easily get all of its electricity from renewables.

    And we don't need as many of these stations as you may think".

    There's no mal-investment in Australia, but there is market failure.

    In the absence of an ever increasing carbon tax, the industry cannot raise the funds to close coal plants and simultaneously build the required green infrastructure, because profits fall as more zero marginal cost new green energy comes online.

    The problem is political, not technical or constrained by resource scarcity (same as in the US)

    Political - and economic - because mainstream economics Is based on private sector profit based markets.

    Political, because vested interests and free market ideologues resist the very idea of zero marginal cost green energy, because the opportunity to make profits from the filthy fossil industry disappears.

    As for landfill, I have already said the new economy based on global zero marginal cost energy will include a new global 100% recycling industry. So all that stuff about environmental pollution is ….garbage. Learn about a nationalised 100% recycling industry, and learn about the limitations of profit based free markets - difficult for an ideologue I know....

    Meantime the BIS idea of "central banks buying the coal industry" reveals the manner of funding the new energy industry outside the inappropriate free market, since profits from zero marginal cost energy production based on solar/wind will be inapplicable.







    [​IMG]
     

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