'How dare you': Greta Thunberg tears into world leaders over inaction at U.N. climate summit

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Space_Time, Sep 23, 2019.

  1. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    How do you pump at zero marginal cost?
    AFAICT, Rifkin is and has always been an idiot with not a single sensible thing to say.
     
  2. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    After the infrastructure is built, funded by BIS at no cost to you*, excess electricity from solar/wind farms pumps water uphill into the upper dam (the equivalent of giant battery) when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing, so energy is stored......to be released during the night/no wind, by allowing the water to flow back downhill (via gravity) to the lower dam to drive a turbine producing electricity.

    "Rifkin has taught at the Wharton School executive education program at the University of Pennsylvania since 1995, where he instructs CEOs and senior management on making a transition of their business operations into sustainable economies. Rifkin is ranked #123 in the WorldPost / HuffingtonPost 2015 global survey of "The World's Most Influential Voices". He also is listed among the top ten most influential economic thinkers in the survey.[5] Rifkin has lectured before many Fortune 500 companies, and hundreds of governments, civil society organizations, and universities over the past thirty five years.[6]

    ….Influencing and followed by an awful lot of idiots?

    *the BIS is not limited by money, but by available resources.



    (Start at 4.00min).
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  3. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    That is nonsense.
    In defiance of the Second Law of Thermodynamics...
    Unfortunately, yes.
     
  4. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    You didn't say why it is nonsense.

    A reverse hydro system has nothing to do with the 2nd law of Thermodynamics.
    The excess free solar/wind electricity stored in the upper dam (when the sun etc is shining) is not a closed energy system.

    Judging from the debate you are having with Reiver on another thread, I'm fairly confident your categorisation of 'idiots' is wrong.
     
  5. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Not really. The Green New Deal was put forward by AOC and her Chief of Staff and primary financial baker admitted this, though it's always been obvious.

    [​IMG]
    Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s chief of staff Saikat Chakrabarti admitted that the true motivation behind introducing the Green New Deal is to overhaul the “entire economy.”

    Chakrabarti said that addressing climate change was not Ocasio-Cortez’s priority in proposing the Green New Deal.

    “The interesting thing about the Green New Deal, is it wasn’t originally a climate thing at all,” Chakrabarti said to Inslee’s climate director, Sam Ricketts, according to a Washington Post reporter who attended the meeting for a profile published Wednesday.​

    “Do you guys think of it as a climate thing?” Because we really think of it as a how-do-you-change-the-entire-economy thing,” he added.​
    No it doesn't.
    Exactly. A small group firmly in control of the means of production, doling out the means of sustenance in a manner that ensures they remain in power and protected against popular uprising, so a well fed police, military. ruling class and a disarmed placid peasantry kept at their mercy.
    Meaningless gibberish.
    No, the Green Weenies who preach austerity while they live lives of vast excess. Your "misunderstanding" is feigned, you knew EXACTLY what I meant.
    [​IMG]
    Activists who fly in private jets but tell the rest of us to consider a world without planes.
    Activists who preach that America has to cripple our economy while posting on their iPhones made in China.
    Celebrities, politicians, and others with megaphones far louder than their own green moral turpitude. They’re everywhere, it seems, spewing death and destruction from inside their gas-guzzling limousines and Lear jets. They attend meaningless conferences the world over the better to preach to us of the virtues of ceding trillions of dollars to fend off global climate change.
    You seem to have a real challenge with basic recitation of the facts. You claimed that the US and China were the two dirtiest air polluters in the world and I pointed out that you were wrong, and that the US was in the top 7 cleanest of the 185 or so cleanest nations in the world while China was in the bottom 15 of the dirtiest and that it was silliness in the highest degree to make your absurd claim.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  6. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Meaningless gibberish.
    No. You said mean, which is average and then attacked average as misleading. Then you pretended that mean = median and now you are pretending that median = mode.
    Mode does NOT equal Median.
    Median is the MIDDLE value.
    Mode is the value that occurs most often.
    Mean is Average.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  7. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    That fundamentalist reading of scripture as Word of God is dangerous for world peace.

    It's THE cause of terrorism, and a significant cause of endless wars. Sorry to rock your complacent world view.

    And all the average wage graphs you have shown are misleading, because most people are on a much lower wage than the average.

    Understand? (I hope so, it's taking a long time for you to get there....).
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  8. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    You welcome to your biased discriminatory beliefs directed at those that disagree with you, but, they will never prevent anyone from holding office in America.

    Article Six of the United States Constitution

    but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.​
    You are welcome to indulge in your demeaning behavior, it really reflects only on you.
    You posted your information in averages, I refuted it in averages and you have been dancing ever since.

    Part of why your approach is so unpopular is because of the obvious hypocrisy of those that preach it for others.

    IT’S GOOD TO BE THE NOMENKLATURA: ‘First Class Commie’ Sanders boards wrong private jet and used 3 to travel to campaign event.

    Both Sanders and Warren — who spend a considerable amount of time railing against jet use on the campaign trail — are using private jets in their campaigns.

    'Not 1, not 2, but 3 Gulfstream jets'
    Sanders and his campaign staff took not just one but three private jets to travel between Charleston and Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, which is only a two-hour drive.

    This is the problem with folks who claim one set of beliefs, want them enforced under penalty of law, while they themselves live lives of indulgence. Have you considered that perhaps deep down that you are a monarchist?

    [​IMG]

    Poor Greta. Those that are supposed to be caring for her... what a shame.
     
  9. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Average IS Mean Silly. Further, your claim is quantified as an average! But, that's not the biggest problem with it, the biggest problem with your claim is that it's untrue.

    [​IMG]
    Now tell me the one about how "CEO" pay is driving up PRODUCTION AND NONSUPERVISORY earnings in low wage industries.

    Here's your real problem. You want to claim the "failure" of free choice, liberty and freedom so that you can "save" the day with Socialism.

    [​IMG]
    Not enough people are fooled.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  10. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Crickets from green groups as Trump makes U.S. ‘global leader in emissions reductions.’

    “Under President Trump, the United States led the world in reducing carbon-dioxide emissions in 2019, but don’t expect Greta Thunberg to give him a hug any time soon. International Energy Agency data released earlier this month showing that U.S. emissions dropped by 2.9% last tear failed to make an impression with Democrats, environmentalists and climate activists, who either shrugged off the data or argued that Mr. Trump’s climate-denialism was somehow thwarted.”​

    It’s almost like it's more about control than the environment. We hear cheers for authoritarian measures that don’t reduce emissions, and dismissal or denigration of free-market measures that do reduce them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  11. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    But it's NOT the median ie what most people earn.

    "The mean is higher than our median because the increased total income has an effect on the upper 1% but not on the worker “in the middle”. The median doesn't care about the income of the 1%, but the mean does. ... The average income tells us how much money everyone could make in a perfectly equal society".Jan 11, 2018

    https://www.cbpp.org/research/pover...ics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality

    A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality

    UPDATED
    January 13, 2020


    by
    Chad Stone
    Danilo Trisi
    Arloc Sherman
    Jennifer Beltrán


    The broad facts of income inequality over the past seven decades are easily summarized:

    • The years from the end of World War II into the 1970s were ones of substantial economic growth and broadly shared prosperity.

      Incomes grew rapidly and at roughly the same rate up and down the income ladder, roughly doubling in inflation-adjusted terms between the late 1940s and early 1970s.
      • The gap between those high up the income ladder and those on the middle and lower rungs — while substantial — did not change much during this period.
      • Beginning in the 1970s, economic growth slowed and the income gap widened.
      • Income growth for households in the middle and lower parts of the distribution slowed sharply, while incomes at the top continued to grow strongly.
      • The concentration of income at the very top of the distribution rose to levels last seen nearly a century ago, during the “Roaring Twenties.”
      • Doesn't alter the broad facts of income inequality over the past seven decades, as outlined above.


    • Save the day with democratic socialism, yes, as in your first picture, that's why Bernie has such a powerful grass-roots following.
    • Your second picture might apply equally well to fascist Right Wing dictatorships, as to totalitarian communism.




     
  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Waste of scarce resources costs everyone.
    Wrong.
    Irrelevant.
    Think again.
     
  13. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    I never said it was. You made a claim using average and I replied using average. Median is what ONE person in a sample earns.
    Seven decades? Are you serious? Why would I be more interested in the data from 1950 than the data for the last 3 years?

    [​IMG]
    The current economy is producing EXACTLY what you claim is needed. Greatest wage growth rates to bottom 1/3rd, next fastest to the middle third and much slower growth for higher wage folks, yet, you are dismissive and instantly try to change the subject. It appears that just as the Environmental movement isn't really about the environment, so the discussion on wages levels for low and middle income workers, isn't really about the wage levels of low and middle income workers.
    In terms of respect for our Rights, Liberty and Freedom, they are birds of a feather.

    In our Constitutional Democracy power resides In The People, which is why our Democracy is the longest surviving in the world. When a small group controls a much larger group, they live in fear of the inevitable bloodbath from revolt when their blood runs in the streets. One they resort to coercion to retain power they are riding the tiger. Our system is much better with Sovereignty residing in The People. There is never a need for that large group to take back power from the smaller group because we never surrender our power. Those that govern us, only do so on our grant of our sovereignty for set purposes and terms. They have no actual sovereignty, they only have that which we temporarily lend them.

    Here in America we would never backslide back into the Totalitarianism that you advocate. I think you are likely to be happier where you are at. Our individual Freedom and Liberty would be a constant source of frustration for you.

    If you're confident of a Sanders victory you can sure make a lot of money. The betting markets have Breadline Bernie at +333 so the more you bet, the more you win!

    https://www.actionnetwork.com/polit...on-odds-donald-trump-bernie-sanders-joe-biden

    He's very popular with some groups:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  14. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    When you want a debate, let me know.
     
  15. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    So now you can understand why median wage growth has been sluggish since the 70's, in the post Reagan neoliberal era.
    ...….during which time the concentration of income at the very top of the distribution rose to levels last seen nearly a century ago, during the “Roaring Twenties.”

    OK, so let's look at the LAST decade (since the GFC).

    1. Average wage growth in the high wage group remained higher than the other groups until 2012, at which point low and middle wage groups began to rise while high wage group fluctuated below and above until 2015.
    Note: so at last the massive increase in high wages growth that began in the 70's has begun to slow, but the damage has been done, with inequality now at pre-great depression levels.

    2. Since 2016, at last growth rates in the low wage group has been higher than the other two.

    3. So this means, for the very last year on the graph:

    a). low wage: growth of 4% of say av. $20,000 = $800/year
    b). high wage: growth of 2% of say av $200,000 = $4000/year.

    So in absolute terms (ie, wages in dollar terms), inequality is still soaring. That's why Bernie has such a powerful grass-roots following.

    Addressed above; poverty remains entrenched at around 12%, and inequality is at pre great depression levels; low-wage growth rates a few points above high-wage growth rates won't change that reality, given the huge gap in absolute wage levels.

    Wrong conclusions, on both counts.

    Note: today the air in China is cleaner (regardless of CO2) than it has been for decades, because its industry is shut down.

    So... for China to keep its air this clean, it has to stop burning fossil fuels.

    According to your ideology.
    Democratic socialism is not totalitarian communism.

    And as riven by partisanship as anywhere else in the world.

    like in totalitarian communism and Right wing dictatorships

    Yes, ask the Argentinians and countless others

    Yes, Bernie agrees.

    Addressed above. You are waxing lyrical from your ideological song-book.

    The point is, Bernie leads Trump in a majority of polls.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/e...s/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-6250.html


    I haven't looked at that 'actionnetwork' poll yet, I will when I get time; should be interesting to compare with the results from the 'realclearpolitics' poll in my link above.

    Che was a true hero of the people, struggling against Fascist murderous RW dictatorships supported by the US.

    "His experiences and studying of Marxism–Leninism led him to posit that the Third World's underdevelopment and dependence was an intrinsic result of imperialism, neocolonialism and monopoly capitalism, with the only remedy being proletarian internationalism and world revolution.[13][14] Guevara left Cuba in 1965 to foment revolution abroad, first unsuccessfully in Congo-Kinshasa and later in Bolivia, where he was captured by CIA-assisted Bolivian forces and summarily executed".

    Ofcourse 'those who live by the sword, die by the sword', as did Che, but the fault lies in the horrific entrenched poverty in our broken world.....
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  16. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    What? Do you check anything before you pontificate on it?

    Here's from the 70's, we have measurement for:

    [​IMG]
    It's not clear why you draw the smiley face on the 70's and the frowny face on everything since.

    No kidding. I told you that after you claimed the opposite.

    [​IMG]

    He's got the grandfatherly thing going, he feeds their resentments and they think he is going to give them free stuff. If you think he is going to win the presidency then go make a killing on your knowledge. Bernie is currently +333, so every hundred you bet, you win $333. The more you bet the more you win!

    https://www.actionnetwork.com/polit...on-odds-donald-trump-bernie-sanders-joe-biden
    We don't have "low wage growth" we are in the midst of strong wage growth.

    [​IMG]
    I'm still not clear on why you have the smiley face on the 70's and the frowny face on everything since. Our current decade is the steepest on the chart, and most decades are steeper than the 70's.
    "Gap?" If I'm making a lot more, I'm supposed to get resentful if I see someone else's wages are growing even faster? What the hell do I care? More power to them!
    Yea Epidemic?
    No. We burn fossil fuels and we have some of the cleanest air on the planet, what China needs is sensible environmental regulation, and until they get this in place, and quit eating bats and snakes and having their kids crap and piss all over the place with the split pants that lets them crap and piss at will on the streets, and the sidewalks and in restaurants, the free world should do a lot less business with them. Trump been moving us toward greater decoupling since the middle of last year so we are off to a good start. And US wage growth has responded quite nicely.
    No. According to real world experience. The fight between Fascists and Communists is between two brands of Socialism, both totalitarian, both mass murders, and both lost to the Free Democracies.
    I'm sure Democratic Fascism is equally lovely. We aren't interested in either. Why are you trying so hard to sell us? Why don't you mind your own business in your own country and do the great things you claim you want to do right in your own country?
    So what? We squabble in the absence of external threat and quickly come together as one when threatened. Don't be like the other dummies who were mislead by our apparent divisions and decided we were ripe for the taking. Much of the "division" is just fake news trying to drive viewing and clicks. It's their business model. Don't be taken in. The Bernie Bros seem to be somewhat given to political violence, but everyone is getting their fill of their crap, and the tolerance for their nonsense could evaporate rather quickly. Probably right around the time that the Democrats choose an ACTUAL Democrat to be their nominee rather than Bernie and they decide to riot. That should be about the time that America will have had enough of their rights violating behavior and lawfully holds them to account. Are you an advocate of political violence and private property destruction when your political goals are frustrated like the Bernie Bros seem to be? And you are telling me that these folks will respect my rights more if they obtain Federal Power? Why would anyone believe you?
    I have no need to. In our system sovereignty resides in The People. We would surrender this a chose dictatorship? Never going to happen. You should get to know us. You clearly do not know us very well.
    Sure he does. He's got the 3 houses including the Lakeside Dacha, he's a millionaire, he rides about campaigning private jets preaching Revolution. He's been angry at "the system" since the Brooklyn Dodgers moved to LA in search of greater opportunity.
    You are being dismissive of the core of American Society.
    So, go make a killing on the betting markets then. It takes a bet of $160 to win a $100 if Trump wins, but $160 bet on Bernie will pay you $533! This is your big opportunity!
    Yes, even those he murdered loved him.

    Guevara said he killed people without regard to guilt or innocence
    In 1962, the official Cuban newspaper Revolución reported that Guevara said,

    in times of excessive tension we cannot proceed weakly. At the Sierra Maestra, we executed many people by firing squad without knowing if they were fully guilty. At times, the Revolution cannot stop to conduct much investigation; it has the obligation to triumph.”​

    No matter who the blood thirsty communist thugs are, Bernie is full of praise, excuses and rationalizations. But the United States? Never a good word does he have to say about us. No matter the conflict, if there is a communist thug on the other side, Bernie is on the other side as well.

    In his own diaries, Guevara waxed poetic:

    I see it printed in the night sky that I ... howling like one possessed, will assault the barricades or the trenches, will take my bloodstained weapon and, consumed with fury, slaughter any enemy who falls into my hands.”​

    This who Bernie and the Bros, like you, idolize. It's kind of sad. The American People aren't going to surrender our rights in exchange for this crap, and you don't have the power to force it on us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
  17. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    https://www.epi.org/publication/ame...is-four-decades-of-slow-and-unequal-growth-2/

    America’s slow-motion wage crisis. Four decades of slow and unequal growth
    Report • By John Schmitt, Elise Gould, and Josh Bivens • September 13, 2018

    For the last four decades, the United States has been experiencing a slow-motion wage crisis. From the end of World War II through the late 1970s, the U.S. economy generated rapid wage growth that was widely shared.
    Since 1979, however, average wage growth has decelerated sharply, with the biggest declines in wage growth at the bottom and the middle. The same pattern of slow and unequal growth continues in the ongoing recovery from the Great Recession.


    That graph must show the average, not the median:
    "The same pattern of slow and unequal growth continues in the ongoing recovery from the Great Recession.



    No, you still don't understand the difference between wage growth rates cf absolute wage levels.



    No, again that graph must show average wage growth, not the median.

    When the bottom 20% are in debt and 60% can't find $1000 from savings in an emergency, you will see a Bernie Sanders becoming a viable candidate for the presidency.............

    And now Bernie is challenging - at the ballot box - the hated and despised status quo in the "free democracies" (although the greed and indifference of the powerful will possibly still prevail...

    I pointed out that the greed of the powerful is the reason for Left Wing revolutions. The reactionary Right is every bit as violent, if not more so. That's what's sad, the greed and the indifference.

    We will see what the "American People" are thinking, very soon.

    For my part, I'm more interested in realising the promise of MMT which demonstrates a nation with the resources can guarantee everyone above poverty participation....so we can finally surmount the Left -Right division.

    "As Keynes wrote, "[Lerner's] argument (re debt and deficits) is impeccable, but heaven help anyone who tries [to] put it across to the plain man at this stage of the evolution of our ideas." (Keynes to Meade, April 1943). …

    The time has come.




     
  18. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    That's a testable statement, so let's test it. Your claim is in average wages, so we'll test it with average wages, also the lower and middle, so we will only look at production and non-supervisors. And since the information in the 70's 80's and 90's isn't inflation adjusted, we'll compare it to inflation numbers.

    [​IMG]

    Wages ran slightly ahead of inflation in the 70's.
    Wages ran right with inflation in the 80's but ended the decade starting to lose ground.
    Wages lagged inflation through the 90's but caught up as the decade closed.
    Wages ran right with inflation in the aughts and began out pacing inflation as the decade closed.
    Wages gains have have been more in excess than inflation through this decade, than they were in the late 70's and are outpacing inflation at the best clip in 50 years. Your claim fails.
    No. It's clearly labeled MEDIAN. Here's the link to the Federal Reserve Data.

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=m3ML

    No. We just tested your claim. It's false. Italics, bold fonts and underlining it do not make a false claim true. You can even make the fonts bigger and it will remain false.
    No. Your claim is false. It's clearly labeled MEDIAN. Here is the link to the Federal Reserve Data.

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=nH8f
    Sure, he'll ride about on moonbeams riding a skittle crapping unicorn. The odds that he will win the Presidency are less than 7%. If you're confident of your claim hit the link below. Every $100 you put down on Breadline Bernie will pay you $1200. The more you bet the more you win!

    https://www.actionnetwork.com/polit...on-odds-donald-trump-bernie-sanders-joe-biden
    And getting his ass kicked. He threw the race praising Castro, the Communist Thug who ruled with Death Squads. Sanders wasn't even beaten as much as his mouth committed suicide by revealing how communist indoctrinated he is in the deadliest ideology in the history of humankind. That pretty well dissolved the Loveable Grandpa thing he had been trading on.
    They are both thugs, you can keep them both. In our system WE RULE and we will not give up our birthright to any group of thugs, Left or Right. Not the Commies, not the Nazi's, not the Jacobins.
    That's that crap where you take over the means of production by printing money and using it to compete against the private sector's buying power where they actually have to labor for their money, not just flip the switch on a press. It's theft. American will never fall for it.
    Keynes also taught that a trade surplus was a “stimulus,” and a deficit was a disaster. In Book VI, he states emphatically: “A favorable balance, provided it is not too large, will prove extremely stimulating; whilst an unfavorable balance may soon produce a state of persistent depression.” Keynes was amazed at the indifference of most economists to the problem.

    Keynes also called on governments to run a surplus during good times.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
  19. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    What the **** is this chart?
    "Av. hourly earnings" = 200 (?) in 2018?

    Here are the facts, again from another random site:

    https://www.axios.com/historically-...get-d4f4ba4e-b40c-4ead-83a7-189f2eebebb1.html

    Feb 10, 2020 - Economy & Business
    Historically weak wage growth may be the best we
    get


    Now all is revealed. Note this chart here:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/

    Average (median) household income in the United States from 1990 to 2018 (in U.S. dollars)


    Records:
    Search:
    Median income (2018 U.S. dollars)
    2018 63,179
    2017 62,626
    2016 60,309
    2015 58,476
    2014 55,613
    2013 56,479
    2012 54,569
    2011 54,673
    2010 55,520
    2009 57,010
    2008 57,412
    2007 59,534
    2006 58,746

    Note the common confusion of average wage with median wage, which is clarified in this chart, and which all your charts fail to differentiate.

    As you can see , median income rose from a low of $54K in 2012 to a high of 63K in 2018 (after inflation), and it has taken almost a decade for wages to surpass the 59K reached in 2009, confirming the large bold type above.


    Refuted above. Your graphs are irrelevant or erroneous, as pointed out above. The median income has risen from 59K in 2007 to 63K in 2018...a rise of 4k in 11 years.

    you show site offering betting odds, I show site polling actual citizens.​
    While you are praising "the American Way", inclined to back every murderous RW dictatorship on the planet...

    Bernie is a democratic socialist. That you react like one of Pavlov's dogs to the word 'socialism' is your problem.
    But you will support gun-runners like Trump - desperate for some filthy lucre to increase expenditure in the DoD - who are complicit in the murder of children in the US's numerous proxy wars eg Yemen and Syria.
    And just yesterday we had Pompeo abusing the ICC - of course you lot want to rule the world on your own terms and are prepared to cripple the planet with ever increasing military spending, even while poverty at home is rampant. Bernie could wipe Trump in a debate effortlessly, on this issue alone.

    Revealing your total non-awareness of the fact that money can be created in the public as well as the private sector, according to democratic policies.

    So according to you, wealth creation must be reserved to "labouring" in profit driven production of consumer junk in private markets? Get a life.

    You have misinterpreted Keynes "A favourablre balance" means a deficit, not a surplus. Keynes wanted to deficit spend to move a demand deficient economy into full employment.

    But in any case his General Theory (and Book VI) was completed in 1935, as his reaction to the GD, and Keynes was still influenced by some axions of classical economics in that work.
    His remarks concerning Lerner's functional finance were made 8 years later, by which time he saw Lerner's completely non-classical-based ideas as being "impeccable".

    See above.
    Keynes' ideas were evolving quickly. At (near) the very end of his life (in 1944, Bretton Woods) Keynes called for a "clearing union", to overcome of the problem of persistent trade deicits/surpluses which cause international trade disputes. The US rejected the idea.....and so we now have Trump throwing his weight around with a mindless "America first" policy to deal with trade disputes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  20. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Average is NOT Median!
    You are the only one who confuses them.
    Real Median Household Income was $55,900 in 2012. Your claim is wrong and you didn't source it.

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/data/MEHOINUSA672N.txt

    2009 real median household income was $58,400.
    Both of your claims are unsourced and wrong and your entire post is in bold type.
    No. They are correct and sourced.
    Real Median Household income in 2007 was $60,985 in 2007, not the $59k you claim. And above you claimed that $59k was reached in 2009, which is also wrong. In 2009 real household income was $58,400.
    No need for us to argue over this, several primaries are tomorrow, we will see how they do.
    Yes.
    The most murderous dictatorships on the planet are Socialist.
    Mao - 76 million
    Stalin - 23 million
    Hitler - 17 million.
    He's a socialist. Read his writings. Read who he has praised all of his life. He loves Communist thugs. He can't praise them enough, meanwhile, he never has a good word to say about America. It's his record, don't blame me for it.
    Socialism or any other form of dictatorship is my problem, though Socialism is the deadliest ideology on the planet. That was no ones doing but theirs. The global Left never rebuked Stalin or Mao. They only rebuked Hitler after he attacked Russia. They were fine with Hitler while he was allied with Stalin.
    You are an America Hater like Bernie.
    I have no clue what you are muttering about now.
    It's none of your damn business what we spend on our military. Do I criticize how your nation chooses to spend your resources? What's it to you?
    I don't even expect him to make it past Biden and Biden doesn't know who he is, where he is, who his wife is, or what office he is running for.
    I'm fully aware of that.
    You make up positions, attribute them to me and then attack them, it's not particularly brilliant.
    No I haven't.
    We elected him to represent US. If you want to elect leaders to represent someone other than their constituents, by all means do so. I love the way folks line up to hang loads on the US they themselves would never have their own nations carry.

    To summarize, we are a free people. We rule ourselves. We don't need Overlords and we won't abide them. We are a PEOPLE with a government, not the other way around.

    If you want to live in a Socialist Country, then do so. It's not clear why you so interested in our business.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  21. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    At last...that's what I have been pointing out, and you have been denying all along!

    [Remember, I was saying average was not 'mean'; you corrected me and said mean is average; so I accepted your terminology and replaced mean with median.

    Now we both know median wage growth rate has been dismal for the low wage group for decades up to the present.

    Professor Bill Mitchell refers to the current situation a "hollowing out" of the middle, with an increase in upper wages, alongside increased employment numbers for 'low quality' (eg gig economy) jobs.

    www.bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/

    US labour market – stronger in the first two months of 2020 but still scope for expansion

    Feature this month: Occupational wage bias intensifies through 2019
    We have previously analysed the issue of job quality in the US labour market. It is one thing to be creating jobs in volume but another to be creating well-paid, secure jobs...….

    Further, while real wages grew marginally, they lag behind labour productivity growth, which means there is scope for faster wages growth without triggering inflationary impulses.

    And the polarisation between high-pay and low-pay continues.


    I gave the link to the source.

    ......the link? (did you miss it?

    Everyone knows median wages growth in the growing gig workforce has been dismal for ages.

    "The ability of a company to depress wages due to lack of competition for workers is known as “monopsony power.” Benmelech wondered if monopsony power, caused by local-labor-market concentration, might be related to the larger wage-stagnation trends among American workers over the past four decades. Dec 2, 2019"



    I rounded the figures to the nearest K. But the important thing is the underlined section in Mitchell's report, confirmed in the kellogg link above.

    Please stop spouting nonsense about everyone doing well in America.

    Yes, well of course Bernie is likely to be sacrificed on the altar of self-interest of a majority of voters who don't want to pay higher taxes for Bernie's program (though single payer health will largely be self funding because the present US private insurance system is twice as expensive per head as all other single payer systems in the world).

    But as to Bernie's other programs, like a tax on Wall St. money shufflers, the 'moderate Dems will still vote against it, because Wall St supports both 'moderate' Dems and Repuds.

    So what? Argentina, Brazil, Greece, Spain and others: where populations were much smaller.

    He has praised the Marxist principle of universal wage justice , aka an economy that works for all.

    I note you Pavlov dog response. In fact classical liberalism based on self-interest and (unconscious?) greed is the reason why Marxist theory was never - indeed could not be - implemented in a peaceful and constructive manner in the world.

    No, I want prosperity for all peoples, including those living in slums in America. Though I do hate war mongers....and gun runners.....

    Well you should open your eyes to what's happening in the world, beyond your shares in the filthy fossil industry.

    https://thehill.com/policy/internat...d-international-courts-probe-of-us-actions-in

    Secretary of State Mike Pompeo on Thursday accused the International Criminal Court (ICC) of being under the influence of “misinformation” after it announced an investigation into U.S. actions in Afghanistan.

    No 'misinformation': Assange has already shone a light on the criminal behaviour of some US military. (Of course the US refused to sign up to the court...having no interest in an international ruled based system).

    It certainly is. My nation, having signed up to nuclear non-proliferation, needs to hide behind - and kiss you know what - of the US. A school mate of mine was one of the first conscripted soldiers to die in the hated Vietnam war - which btw cost the lives of 6 US students, murdered by the 'national guard' in their own country!

    Yep the unconscious greed - of all of us - in the US case will probably see Bernie off, leaving a dementia sufferer in charge (Reagan showed it can be done)…...and those polls of actual citizens probably show that Biden, as well as Bernie, can beat Trump, (though I haven't looked, for my lack of interest in Biden)

    And yet you still reject it, despite the disaster of entrenched poverty.

    Sheer unnecessary greed, I suppose.
    Lerner has explained that taxes are not necessary to fund business-cycle-busting full employment, and yet you still insist the public sector can have no role in wealth creation beyond what the profit seeking private sector will pay in taxes.

    Addressed above. Your entire classical economics based world view is dysfunctional; Hence "You are living in poverty, your neighbourhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken ..."

    If you insist...

    I'm not the one wanting the US as world policeman.

    Addressed above: Your entire classical economics based world view is dysfunctional; Hence "You are living in poverty, your neighbourhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken ..."

    Because the US is the self-appointed world policeman; and when the Right (including Biden and Clinton and the other war mongers) are in charge, the world is even more dangerous than usual.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  22. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    With conservative estimates of minimum wage adjusted for inflation running from some $36K + per year, $56 K isn't impressive. Adjusting it via the gold standard, it is far less impressive, at $56K a year, which is in line with Milton Friedman's estimates. A chart with per capita GDP is a better visual of alleged 'prosperity', versus the buying power of the dollar. It appears consumers have received no benefits from the labor racketeering via 'out-sourcing' to Red China, and certainly less than nothing form all the tax subsidies that make it cheap for companies to transport the goods here. $100K a year is barely above poverty level in the 'boom towns' these days, especially the Bay Area and NYC, and now even Dallas is getting ridiculously expensive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  23. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Americans and Europeans (the principal world-markets) have obtained what they wanted most. Much less expensive costs for the daily items they buy most (aside from food, which does not come from China). When it comes to ultra-important upmarkets both Europe and US know how to shut China out - as they will do to Huawei for the 5G market.

    The low-cost product-production is NOT coming back. And, even, China may find it increasingly more difficult to compete with a decently low-price. As has already has happened, these base-products will move to Southeast Asia for production. (And perhaps Africa ... who knows?)

    Anyway, as I've said a thousand times here - the US had already started to move out of the Industrial Age in the 1990s. It is now well into the Information Age. The better American Jobs have thus gone up-market for which a post-secondary degree is a requirement.

    Which is why we must make that level of degree available inexpensively or we shut out a good many of our insufficiently skilled population ...
     
  24. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    All true; and a good number of US citizens are highly indebted, or shut out of health care and tertiary education altogether.

    But the US is still performing WAY better than the EU which is imprisoned in a neoliberal nightmare, resulting in Greece's per capita income reducing from US$30K to 18K since the GFC, and Italy - the 3rd largest economy in the EU - from 40K to 30K in the same period. Ouch.

    Meanwhile:

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=44452

    Bundesbank remits record profits to German government while Greek health system fails

    The Germans of course are in charge... and their insistence on surpluses (related to Weimar hyperinflation paranoia) is crippling the deficit countries in the EU.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  25. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    New job creation in the U.S. has been concentrated in low skill, low wage part time crap jobs, not 'Information Age' rubbish. 'And, many of those jobs are themselves 'out-sourced' or handed to cheap imports with green cards. Time to admit universities and corporations have been lying out their asses and allowing Americans to make very bad choices re the real world labor markets and contributing to the high debt load many students are graduating with degrees they have no hope of gaining employment with and never getting out form under the loan sharking scams. They should be prosecuted for fraud and made to eat those loans.
     
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