How do you explain consciousness?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Dirty Rotten Imbecile, Mar 21, 2017.

  1. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    I just don't believe "super natural" is possible. If the universe is the sum total of all matter/energy or "everything" then anything that exists "outside" of it is automatically part of it. That doesn't cause me despair. The idea that my existence is meaningless causes me despair. If I can't find that overall purpose or meaning in my existence and in the existence of the universe then why am I even here? The natural universe is truly inspiring and fulfilling but what is it or why is it?
     
  2. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    And learning more about the universe is rewarding. The argument can be made that evolving into a learning species, as opposed to instinctual, has a better chance of survival so while we don't know everything our desire to learn is a survival trait. Learning is easier in a conscience state which could also be another adaption. Learning not only allowed us to explore other environments but find ways to adapt and survive in them.

    It was only about 25 years ago that we learned of the actual existence of planets around other stars, although Sagan and others had long speculated on the probability. Perhaps our conscious desire to learn will result in our eventually exploring those other planetary environments in the future assuming we don't wipe ourselves out in the interim.
     
  3. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How does that explain then, that conscious intent gives results higher than mere chance? If no conscious intent is present, you get chance percentages. They use the same generator for both runs. This has been run thousands of times. In controlled conditions. The one I read about used 0s and 1s. Here, from the Princeton site..

    "
    Experimental Research
    I. Human-Machine Anomalies

    The most substantial portion of the PEAR experimental program examined anomalies arising in human/machine interactions.

    In these studies human operators attempted to bias the output of a variety of mechanical, electronic, optical, acoustical, and fluid devices to conform to pre-stated intentions, without recourse to any known physical influences. In unattended calibrations all of these sophisticated machines produced strictly random data, yet the experimental results display increases in information content that can only be attributed to the consciousness of their human operators.

    Over the laboratory's 28-year history, thousands of such experiments, involving many millions of trials, were performed by several hundred operators. The observed effects were usually quite small, of the order of a few parts in ten thousand on average, but they compounded to highly significant statistical deviations from chance expectations. These results are summarized in "Correlations of Random Binary Sequences with Pre-Stated Operator Intention" and "The PEAR Proposition"

    http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/


    So, if consciousness is created by the brain, would it not be confined to the organism, and incapable of affecting anything outside of the organism? Granted, the effect is weak, but it has been shown to be there as laid out in the above quote from the site link. Do you realize the affect of consciousness on these machines is accepted, and if your idea of seed numbers were in fact valid, the position of the engineering dept at Princeton would be woo woo, which it clearly is not?

    Lastly, from the Princeton site....

    "
    Beyond its revolutionary technological applications and scientific impact, the evidence of an active role of consciousness in the establishment of physical reality holds profound implications for our view of ourselves, our relationships to others, and to the cosmos in which we exist. These, in turn, must inevitably impact our values, our priorities, our sense of responsibility, and our style of life. Our ability to acquire, or to generate tangible, measurable information independent of distance or time challenges the foundation of any reductionist brain-based model of consciousness that may be invoked. The lack of notable correlations in the data with standard learning curves or other recognizable cognitive patterns, combined with the repeatable and distinct gender-related differences, suggest that these abilities may stem from a more fundamental source than heretofore suspected.

    Certainly, there is little doubt that integration of these changes in our understanding of ourselves can lead to a substantially superior human ethic, wherein the long-estranged siblings of science and spirit, of analysis and aesthetics, of intellect and intuition, and of many other subjective and objective aspects of human experience can be productively reunited"

    Specifically...."Our ability to acquire, or to generate tangible, measurable information independent of distance or time challenges the foundation of any reductionist brain-based model of consciousness that may be invoked"

    So, I think my challenge is reasonable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    We're each one of billions of one species that is still evolving. I think we have to be careful when we strive to find meaning.

    Let's not ignore the opportunity we have of helping each other, of reducing hostility and suffering in the world as a whole, etc. We find meaning in the deaths of fallen troops and emergency personnel. And, people don't have to die to have their lives be meaningful. Every plumber is helping us control disease. Technology is helping us communicate - hugely important. We have people working in soup kitchens. We have artists, doctors, scientists measuring pollution to keep people safe, etc., etc.

    Also, religion may help answer questions concerning why I should behave like Jesus wants me to (=> in order for me to get everlasting life!!). But, it doesn't answer why the universe is here or why life started.

    I'd far rather have us thinking about the meaning of what we are each doing - or could be doing.
     
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  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, that program was shut down by the people doing the research, much to Princeton's relief.

    The effects they claimed were incredibly small and highly likely to be the result of mistakes in methodology.

    This whole PEAR thing is considered a hoax by reputable scientists.
     
  6. Channe

    Channe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have thought long and hard about this, and I agree that this simple example pretty much proves that consciousness is connected directly to the brain.
     
  7. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics applies to closed systems.

    Life on Earth, the human brain, evolutionary processes, none of those are closed systems.
     
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  8. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we are able to receive energy from outside of ourselves that drives us into a more organized state. We are however an "expression" (choose a better word for me if you wish) of the universe which itself is a closed system (presumably, of course) that started out as clouds of hydrogen with very minimal variations in temperature and has changed into ordered state upon ordered state. Clouds of gas have become stars and stars have expelled elements and elements have become organic chemicals which have become single celled organisms, single celled organisms have become multicellular and the resulting animals have evolved and adapted and organized into social groups and social groups have become complex governments and governments now span continents and soon planets etc. This is what fascinates me.

    But, yes, you and a few others here have pointed out the closed system thing and that motivated me to find this article which concludes "It is surprising that mixing entropy and biology still fosters confusion. The relevant concepts from physics pertaining to the second law of thermodynamics are at least 100 years old. The confusion can be eradicated if we distinguish thermodynamic entropy from logical entropy, and admit that Earth's biosphere is open to organizing input from elsewhere."
     
  9. Dropship

    Dropship Well-Known Member

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    Whoa! the universe is nothing to write home about, it's just an expanding debris field left over from the big bang, just dead lifeless atoms and molecules bumping into each other.
    Don't let the phoney colourised Hubble pretty images fool you..:)
     
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  10. Interaktive

    Interaktive Well-Known Member

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    These are brain reflexes
     
  11. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    5 years later, does anyone have anything new to say about this topic?
     
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  12. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    It's the most interesting question I can possibly think of, and as far as the "rule of cool" goes, I hope Chalmers is right. Panpsychism is, by far, the most interesting world to live in.
     
  13. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How do you explain consciousness?

    ~ There is a reason we have dictionaries ... :bookdiva:

    ~ This is what happens when we humans " overthink " . :bonk:
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    How might you be benefitting from that right now?
     
  15. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. Can you elaborate and explain the meaning of your question?
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, we're living in this universe right now. And, if there is panpsychism going on, then it's going on right now.

    I'm just wondering how we are feeling that, what interest it is adding, how it is benefitting us, etc.
     
  17. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    In general, I'd say that this is the sort of thing that people are interested as something of intrinsic value, rather than practical instrumental value. And I'd say that pretty much goes for any interest in metaphysics. Aside from, say, ethics and very specific applications of epistemology, I'm not sure philosophy of any kind has much instrumental use.
     
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  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is a good question
    Both of the above are "Non-Answers" of a sort - Brain activity is related to consciousness -- got it, but this does not explain consciousness ... what it is .. where it came from.. how it arose.

    But the big point missed .. is that we don't actually know if brain activity "is" consciousness .. and I will give examples to Illustrate.

    1) Brain activity is a function of consciousness ... which gets us into a nasty chicken and egg.. What means this .. is that a thought can generate brain activity. We know "Which comes first" in the case of thoughts generating brain activity .. The thought. The chicken and egg here is that .. did the brain create the thought .. or the thought create the brain... and we don't know.

    2) Brain activity happens without conscious direction .. you don't control many of your bodily functions consciously .. but your brain does- does the brain have a mind of its own ?

    Now for the "Thought Experiment" - Look down at index finger on right hand .. wiggle it. Congratulations - you just manifested a thought into physical reality via "force" of will .. but we have no clue how this happens .. how the will can make the brain do things.

    So if the will is a force unto itself .. separate and apart from the brain -
     
  19. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :nerd: ~ Not AOC's brain ... :brainless:

    190870-1_shadow.jpg
    " People are projecting their sexual frustrations onto my boyfriend's feet. "
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    A thought IS brain activity, right? Clearly, there may be subsequent brain activity in response to the thought. I don't see any "chicken/egg" problem here (and I'd point out that chicken/egg has an actual answer).

    Our brains are constantly working and constantly taking in new information. There isn't a way to support that an idea literally came from nowhere.
    No. The brain simply performs various tasks without the individual needing to actually take part in each step. Some of that is provided naturally. Some can be learned - such as walking.
    You didn't show any reason to believe that the brain can't operate our muscles. I think your claims of cluelessness are way over emphasized here.
     
  21. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  22. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Disagree there is extreme amounts of brain activity sometimes when you are asleep and said to be unconscious.

    Brain activity seems to indicate that you are alive not that you are conscious. Consciousness implies an awareness or deliberateness to actions
     
  23. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    seems we figured it out

     
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  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    That's a bit of a circular premise hear me out.

    In order to understand consciousness you must first be conscious. So it is required to understand itself. Without awareness you can't be aware that you are aware. But if you're aware of your awareness are you really aware of your awareness or is your awareness aware of you.

    Lol
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This is going in a good direction, I think.

    There are different definitions of what it means to be conscious, what the hard problem of consciousness actually is.
     

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