Discussion in '9/11' started by SamSkwamch, Apr 4, 2016.
This makes no sense!
Agreed, the information is classified but he knows there's evidence linking unknown Israelis and 9/11 and he also knows the evidence is classified. It is Faux News after all.
I think you'll find that is no longer the case. How old is that pic?
You missed the point. What type of power must a foreign nation hold to classify information pertaining to a mass murder on American soil?
You didn't state a point, you just posted a simplistic meme. Are you trying to say that Israel influenced the US government to classify the material? It was classified until it was resolved, and I think you'll find it is all over, done and dusted.
It's another 'non-issue' in a long list of truther 'non-issues'.
Here's a post from another thread with some relevant info.
The same power that the Saudi royal family has that prompted the Bush administration to classify 28 pages of the Congressional Joint Inquiry report into 9/11 regarding the financing of 9/11 by the Saudi royal family.
We don't know if the redacted pages were about the Suadis or the Israelis or both for that matter. We do know that Israel has a long history of false flag operations designed to trick us into attacking their enemies.
We also know that some great power was able to classify information pertaining to this mass murder on our soil.
And although never really spoken of, we also know:
On the morning of September 11, 2001 a Jersey City, N.J. housewife named Maria was making coffee in her kitchen when she received a phone call from a neighbor who excitedly told her to look out the window. When Maria looked she was shocked to see a plume of smoke rising from the World Trade Center about a mile away across the Hudson River. Quickly Maria grabbed some binoculars and stepped out onto the balcony of her high-rise apartment, known as the Doric Towers, which afforded an excellent view of lower Manhattan. Maria did not yet know that a commercial airliner had plowed into the north tower of the World Trade Center, but it was obvious that an ugly tragedy was in progress.
As she watched, she noticed three men in the parking lot below who were behaving strangely. They were sitting or kneeling on the roof of a white panel truck and, like her, were watching the stricken World Trade Center. Oddly, however, the three men were celebrating. They were smiling and laughing, giving high-fives, taking photos, and one looked to be filming the World Trade Center as it burned. Their inappropriate behavior made Maria suspicious and, a few minutes later, when the men drove off in the van, she copied down their license plate number. When her husband returned home from jury duty, she discussed the matter with him, then, called the police and reported what she had seen.
At 3:31 p.m., the FBI put out a “be on the lookout” (BOLO) all points bulletin and, about an hour later, East Rutherford police officers Scott DeCarlo and Sgt. Dennis Rivelli identified the white van, then stopped it on Rt. 3, near Giants stadium. The cops approached and instructed the occupants to exit the vehicle, but the driver refused and the officers, now with guns drawn, had to physically remove the occupants (there were now five of them). The men were hand-cuffed, read their rights, and taken into custody.
All of them were between 22-27 years of age. Their names were Sivan Kurzburg, his brother Paul Kurzburg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The driver [Sivan Kurzburg] reportedly told officer DeCarlo, “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”i Another occupant falsely said, “We were on the West Side highway in New York City during the incident.”
A search of the vehicle turned up several passports, cameras, rolls of film, a sock stuffed with $4700 in cash, backpacks, notebooks and, according to the Bergen Record, “maps of the city with certain places highlighted….It looked like they were hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen.”ii This story in the local newspaper was prescient, because the issue of foreknowledge would preoccupy the subsequent FBI investigation. The question was eventually answered, though as we will learn, not by the FBI.
The five Israelis claimed to be tourists temporarily employed by a local moving company, Urban Moving Systems (UMS), based in Weehawken, N.J. The owner of the business was also an Israeli, 31-year old Dominik Suter whom FBI agents briefly questioned, before Suter fled to Israel with his family. At that point, the FBI obtained a warrant and searched the UMS premises. They found evidence of Suter’s hasty departure, uneaten sandwiches, cell phones and half-full coffee cups, as well as stored furniture and the belongings of numerous customers who had been left hanging. FBI agents seized documents and at least fifteen computers.
The FBI placed the five Israelis in a federal detention center, isolated them from one other, and began to interrogate them closely. The investigation was driven by numerous discrepancies in their accounts, and by the men’s strange behavior in the period before the second plane impact when everyone still assumed that the first crash was simply a tragic accident. Some of the Israelis were given as many as seven lie-detector tests in an effort to determine if they had advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks. One, Paul Kurzburg, refused for weeks to take a lie-detection test, then agreed to take it, and promptly failed it.iii
During interrogation, the Israelis reportedly explained why they were happy that morning. They said it was because “the United States would now have to commit itself to fighting [Middle East] terrorism, that Americans would have an understanding and empathy for Israel’s circumstances, and that the attacks were ultimately a good thing for Israel.”iv As we know, Likud-leader Benjamin Netanyahu made a similar comment when asked about 9/11. “It’s very good,” Netanyahu told the press, then back-tracked, “Well, not very good, but it will generate immediate sympathy for Israel.”v
The FBI investigation took a serious turn when two of the men turned up in a US national intelligence database, indicating they were known Mossad agents. Mossad is the Israeli equivalent of the CIA. Also, two of the men (it is not clear if these were the same two) were found to be in possession of round-trip airline tickets. The two had arrived in the US from Tel Aviv via Athens on June 15, 2001, and were scheduled to return to Israel on September 12, 2001, the day after the attacks.vi Was the suspicious timing of their planned departure just a coincidence?
In March 2002, an un-named high-ranking US intelligence official told The Forward, a venerable New York Jewish newspaper, that the FBI concluded at the end of its investigation that the Israelis arrested in New Jersey had been conducting a Mossad surveillance mission on September 11, and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems, served as a front.vii
ABC News conducted its own probe and reported a similar view on the network’s prime-time show 20/20.viii During a taped interview with co-hosts Barbara Walter and John Miller, the Israeli detainees’ attorney, Steve Gordon, made a belated attempt at damage-control. Gordon said his clients denied the news reports that that they had been celebrating, or rejoicing, or even horsing around, that morning. But Gordon’s attempt to spin the story in a more favorable light remained at odds with the evidence found in the white van, namely, rolls of film plus the film pulled from three cameras, which when developed by the FBI appeared to confirm exactly what Maria first told police. The Israelis had taken portrait shots of one another with the burning World Trade Center in the background, and plainly were in a festive mood. The FBI never found the alleged videocamera, however.ix
ABC consultant Vince Cannistraro, who formerly had served as CIA chief of counter-terrorism operations, later told journalist Christopher Ketcham that “the question that most troubled FBI agents in the weeks and months after 9/11 was whether the Israelis had arrived at the site of their ‘celebration’ with foreknowledge of the attack to come.” According to Cannistraro, “From the beginning, the FBI investigation operated on the premise that the Israelis had foreknowledge.”x
The FBI report
Such a conclusion is consistent with the FBI report on the case, or rather, with the small part of it that was made public in 2011. Most of the FBI report, some 1280 pages or more in length, remains classified and will not be released until 2035. But even from the lesser part that has been declassified, it is evident that the FBI uncovered some disturbing material linking the Israelis to 9/11, material that was never reported by the US news media.xi
For instance, the report mentions that the FBI received information from its Miami office that one of the 19 alleged 9/11 hijackers had utilized another Israeli-run moving company, Classic International Movers (CIM), also based in New Jersey. It seems that a number of Israeli-owned moving companies were operating in the New York area. Curiously, CMI’s telephone number turned up in one of the notebooks found in the white van, all of which prompted the FBI to detain and interview four CIM employees. The four were Israelis and had served in the Israeli military; and all four had entered the US from various locations in South America.xii Although the outcome of the expanded investigation cannot be determined from the heavily censored FBI report, the connection to the 19 hijackers must have alarmed US intelligence experts. If Mossad agents were shadowing Arab terrorists in the US, it possibly meant the Israelis had prior actionable intelligence about the 9/11 attacks which they did not share with US officials.
In another case, the FBI interviewed a former Urban Moving Systems employee who said he had quit Urban “due to a high amount of anti-American sentiment present among Urban’s employees.” The former worker stated that, in addition to Israelis, UMS also employed Russians, Hungarians, and other foreign nationals. But the Israelis always spoke Hebrew among themselves and held frequent meetings in the company office, to which “he and the other non-Jewish employees were never invited.” The man said that “an Israeli employee of Urban had once remarked, ‘Give us twenty years and we’ll take over your media and destroy your country’.” I hasten to add, this is straight out of the FBI report. I am not making this up, nor embellishing.xiii
The same individual also offered a glimpse into the moving operation that could explain why UMS owner Dominik Suter fled the country. The former employee called Suter a “crook” and described how he “would have the delivery teams fill up the trucks with empty boxes, because he [Suter] would charge the customers by cubic feet. He [Suter] would also have some employees stay on the trucks when they were weighed so that he could charge more.”xiv If this is true, and Suter was engaging in shady business practices, it might explain why he fled. Suter might have feared exposure and possible prosecution.
The testimony of the plainly disgruntled individual must be treated with skepticism, yet, one of the Israeli detainees (I will refer to him as the “5th Israeli” corroborated some of what he said. The fifth Israeli told the FBI that most of the foreign nationals employed at UMS lacked the necessary work-visas, which means that Dominik Suter made a practice of hiring illegals, and based on the testimony of his own workers, it’s clear he exploited their illegal status, paying sub-standard wages under the table, while avoiding payroll taxes. Suter definitely had cause for concern. Yet, as the reader is about to learn, his flight was also undoubtedly motivated by a much more serious matter.
In the end, despite considerable evidence to the contrary, the FBI concluded “that the five Israelis most likely did not possess prior knowledge of the WTC events.”xv On November 20, 2001, the detainees were served a deportation order for visa violations, then escorted from a US immigration and naturalization center in Brooklyn to JFK international airport where they were put on a flight to Tel Aviv. Once safely back in Israel, three of the men went on a national television show, and during the interview one, Oded Ellner, told his audience that “Our purpose was to document the event,”xvi which of course implies foreknowledge. Ellner’s public admission reduced the FBI investigation to absurdity. Unfortunately, from there it gets worse, because the rest of the story is almost too terrible to contemplate. Yet, face it we must.
The fifth Israeli
It seems that one of the five Israeli detainees did not know enough to keep his mouth shut, probably because he was not a member of the core Mossad group, hence, was not in the loop. This fifth Israeli was apparently just a guy, a poor shmuck who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. According to the FBI report, the man broke down and sobbed repeatedly under interrogation, not what you would expect of a Mossad operative. The man told the FBI he barely knew the four other Israelis who were in the van with him at the time of the arrest, and did not even know their last names. Evidently, this fifth man was one of two Johnny-come-late-lies who joined the group after the high-fivers left the parking lot below Maria’s apartment.xvii
This odd man out gave the FBI the fullest account of any of the detainees. He described in considerable detail the events of that morning; how he first noticed smoke pouring from the World Trade Center while en route to work; and how he arrived at UMS late, between 9:15 - 9:20 a.m., whereupon, he reported to the box packaging area in the UMS warehouse for some scheduled training. Apparently, the man was still a novice mover. He further explained that around 11 a.m. one of the other Israelis came in and announced that “they are taking down the second building,” at which point everyone in the warehouse hurried up to the roof to watch the mind-boggling spectacle. The fifth Israeli told the FBI that (and I quote) “at the time [he, the fifth man] believed that the authorities had purposely collapsed the building to prevent the additional damage that would be caused by the building tumbling to its side. It was not until later that night when he saw a TV news report in jail that he realized that the planes had caused the buildings’ collapse.” This is verbatim from the FBI report.
Looking back with unblinkered hindsight, it’s clear that the naive fifth Israeli heard it right the first time from the other Israeli who knew the truth: that the World Trade Center was being systematically demolished in plain view of the whole world.
Today, fifteen years after the fact, we know it was a demolition thanks to the independent research of some highly motivated scientists, engineers and truth-tellers, who over the years have gathered an overwhelming amount of evidence, proving beyond a reasonable doubt that explosives were used.xviii The basics have been known since at least 2007, when the physicist Steven E. Jones found explosive residues in samples of World Trade Center dust.xix
Some of the evidence for explosives was actually compiled on the morning of “the attacks.” Indeed, it was being gathered at Hoboken, N.J., on the shore of the Hudson, even as the Israelis celebrated on the roof of the UMS warehouse a mile or more upriver at Weehawken. When Rick Siegel heard about the tragedy unfolding in lower Manhattan, he hustled to the Hoboken waterfront, set up his videocamera on a tripod, and began shooting. Over the next two hours, Siegel diligently filmed both collapses, but even more importantly, he captured an audio record of the enormous rumbling explosions that ripped through the towers in the moments before they fell.xx
Thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of shocked local residents who were also watching from the Jersey shore that morning must have heard the same enormous explosions, as did many more in lower Manhattan. Yet, not one of these Americans was ever asked to appear before the official 9/11 investigations and describe what he or she saw and heard, that morning.
Siegel’s audio-video tape is almost as shocking on replay as the events of that day. The slightly muffled but nonetheless unmistakable sounds of huge multiple blasts carried quite well for more than two miles across the open water of the Hudson River. Siegel’s audio record is yet more corroborating evidence refuting the fiction that has pervaded the US media ever since: that plane impacts and fires brought down the twin towers. No way, we were deceived. The official story about 9/11 is probably the most monstrous lie ever perpetrated upon the American people.
The Mossad team based in Weehawken not only had, by its own admission, foreknowledge of the “attacks,” the testimony in the FBI’s own report, as I have attempted to show, suggests that the Israelis also knew, that very morning, that the World Trade Center was being demolished with explosives.
Standing truth on its ear
Oded Ellner’s brazen admission that “our purpose was to document the incident” may have played well in Israel, but it raised a number of urgent questions for Americans, questions that still need answers. First and foremost: how did the FBI come to embarrass itself so badly? Indeed, how could the FBI have reached a conclusion 180 degrees from the truth? Especially since its investigation, judging from the portion of the FBI report that is available, appears to have been on track, at least initially.
I suspect the answer is rather simple. Although the FBI had all of the necessary resources to do its work, it was hamstrung by the official story and thus, was unable to pursue leads that would have led to the truth. The idea of a demolition was so far out of bounds as to be unthinkable. This no doubt also explains why the FBI declassified the fifth Israeli’s eyewitness account. The FBI censor evidently failed to comprehend the significance of the man’s testimony, pointing to the use of explosives.
But the FBI was also shut down from above. A source at ABC News told journalist Chris Ketcham that “there is a lot of frustration inside the bureau about this case. They feel the higher echelons torpedoed the investigation….Leads were not fully investigated.”xxi
ABC reported that a settlement was finally reached in the case after “high level negotiations between Israeli and US government officials.”xxii According to former CIA counter-terrorism chief Vince Cannistraro, “there is no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this basically was going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11. Bear in mind, this was a political issue, not a law enforcement or intelligence issue.”xxiii
The travesty I have just described incriminates then-president G.W. Bush and VP Dick Cheney. We are left to ponder their obvious treachery, and the following incendiary question: how did the Mossad team in New Jersey know in real time that the Twin Towers were being demolished with explosives?
From: 9/11: The FBI Report and the Dancing Israelis Standing Truth on its Ear
--Mark H. Gaffney
It's a cult war; it's obvious to me. Larry Silverstein, a wealthy Jew bought the towers & took terrorist insurance out. They've been planning it for decades. Then, they knock it down and using American-Israeli government approved airwaves to wage war against the proposed "terrorists" which happen to be the Muslims. It's a cult war; in truth, Jewish extremists orchestrated it for the expansion of Israel. But they needed to first convince us to fear & hate Islam, because every single surrounding country around Israel is Islamic. America wouldn't listen unless something drastic happened, so they invented an "Islamic terrorist war" to get us to go on board, when in truth it was actually a false-flag Jewish terrorist extremist war for Israel.
You have to ask yourself; did Islamic extremists do it for 72 virgins—or did Jewish extremists do it to blackmail Islam for Israel? They're both cults; more evidence points to the Jewish extremists, really—who have long been known to always claim victimhood & "poor little us being blamed", when in truth Jews 90% of the time favor other Jews over anyone else, and they call it "traditional differences" when it's actually bigotry. They rally power and they don't care about you, or the Muslims. Judaism hates Islam; that is a fact—otherwise it would be called Islam. As it stands, however, Judaism has rejected nearly any subsequent prophet & messiah, which is the equivalent of a group of ants without a queen or a group of humans claiming that women don't exist; you can't just decide that the prophet archetype isn't real anymore, because it damages the life purpose of actual prophets who are born to be heard; but they made it next to impossible for any prophet to live happy—and I resent them for it. Judaism has unequivocally died in blasphemy deciding that no true prophet really ever exists—and they only credit them passingly after they've died a miserable, lonely, rejected, persecuted, & humiliated life among them while they steal the spoils of their glory if they ever choose to acknowledge them in any shape or form.
Yet, by the laws of God & Nature, a messiah comes ever 2,147 years (the astrological ages), and yet they claim no messiah came—and even as one is here today, they don't acknowledge him.
How long will Judaism be allowed to kill the prophets & messiahs in the name of personal power & peace? How long will they be exempt from blame for turning a deaf ear, while everyone says: Don't criticize or blame Jewish extremists! They're ALWAYS the victim 100% of the time of course!
We know that's not true; they're a racist, anti-prophet, hateful organization who has made shamans lives very difficult, Muslims lives difficult, and more. They don't care about us.
The whole affair regarding the 'dancing Israelis' has been resolved by the FBI and was a 'non-starter'. There was nothing of merit in the charges.
Actually we do know what the redacted pages were about generally speaking. This guy is in a position to know:
Bob Graham: Censoring 28 Pages Paved Way for ISIS
The connection is a direct one. Not only has Saudi Arabia been promoting this extreme form of religion, but it also has been the principal financier, first of Al Qaeda then of the various Al Qaeda franchises around the world specifically the ones in Somalia and Yemen and now the support of ISIS.
Sen. Graham: Bush covered up Saudi involvement in 9/11
Former Sen. Bob Graham was Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee tasked with investigating 9/11.
What we don't know is what other entities were involved.
You are very easily fooled to believe the FBI
This is the same FBI that lied to the Congress and the 9/11 Commission when they told them they turned over everything they had on 9/11. Years later, it was discovered they hid 27 boxes of documents related to a 9/11 investigation that links the Saudis.
Not to mention:
FBI Tells 911 Rescue Worker To 'Shut Up' Over Finding Airplane 'Black Boxes'
so two guys manage to find 3 out of the 4 black boxes in all that rubble? ... ok Bob ...
Well...if he quotes Rense he should expect ridicule. That guy is a nutter.
- - - Updated - - -
You're easily fooled by believing con artists on the internet, but I suppose, that is a given.
As your responses are quite lazy, it is telling that you did not supply any supporting evidence, nor could you demonstrate where I went wrong, so your opinion is of no merit, and I have no reason to give you any credence, after all, you believe in nukes, so you'll swallow anything fed to you by idiots.
Well heck, Bernie Kerik "found" Atta's identification papers in pristine condition on the sidewalk, so why not?
Black boxes can easily be destroyed, it happens in every plane crash but passports are indestructible, everyone knows that.
Argument from incredulity which evinces a poor understanding of the random nature of such events. Fallacious and ignorant.
Mine was not an argument, just an observation about the mendacious reputation of the crook who "discovered" Atta's documents.
The whole argument regarding the passport is based upon incredulity. Why mention it then? I don't care what you think about the guy, that doesn't mean (*)(*)(*)(*), as you believe in nukes.
Personally, I think your own argument is an argument from incredulity. Even mainstream sources have found it hard to believe that a passport could have survived the inferno in one of the World Trade Towers to flutter down a few blocks away. What's more, the official story has even changed whose passport was found. While originally the identity was supposedly Atta's, it has now morphed to that of Satam al-Suqami:
I've heard no explanation as to why the identity of the passport was initially stated to be Atta's.
For a frame of reference as to how little was recovered from Flight 11, it appears that the only other thing found from Flight 11 was a piece of landing gear:
Here's the mainstream article I was referring to:
And? I'm sorry, but this is just an argument from incredulity even if the MSM sources find it incredible. Even if your belief were true, what does it mean?
What is it actually evidence of?
Let's just look at this for a second and note the absurdity behind the notion.
1). Some nefarious group planted a passport on the street to back up this Byzantine plot.
2). Those behind this know that everyone will find it incredible.
3). Then they incompetently gave out the wrong information on the passport.
None of this was necessary for the plot to be taken seriously, and the whole story is just bizarre. Furthermore, the passport stood up as evidence in the Moussaoui trial. So, it is now up to 9/11 truth to discredit its veracity, not me to prove its authenticity.
Alright, I think it's time I put up the definition of "argument from incredulity" for those not familiar with the term. rationalwiki.org defines it as: "The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone decides that something did not happen, because they cannot personally understand how it could happen." In other words, it's the fallacy that just because a person can't understand how something could happen, it therefore didn't happen. By that definition, the mainstream media was not, in fact, making an "argument from incredulity". They were suggesting that it was -hard- to believe, but not something that couldn't be true no matter what evidence was presented before them. Given the fact that even some mainstream media sources have found Atta's, no wait, -Satam's- passport fluttering free from a fireball incredibly improbable, it's only natural that Eleuthera is similarly not impressed. What is odd is the fact that you seem to find nothing strange about it at all. Have you ever thought that it is atleast -slightly- suspicious that an identity morphing passport survived the aircraft's inferno? Failing that, have you never atleast wondered how is it that they somehow misidentified Satam's passport for Atta's? It's not like the names are even vaguely similar. If you haven't, I'd say that the person who is truly arguing from incredulity is you.
It has to do with the nature of the truth and narratives that are partially false. Partially false narratives must constantly change in order to accommodate parts of the truth that are uncovered, or parts of the false narrative that too many people have come to distrust if not outright disbelieve. Each time the story changes, however, questions spring up; why was the story changed being the principal one. In this particular case, even some mainstream sources are skeptical that this morphing passport truly fell essentially undamaged from a flaming fireball and then morphed (or somehow misidentified) into the passport of someone else. The most likely explanation is that the story is false.
While I think most would agree that an action the size of 9/11 would need multiple actors involved (even the official story recognizes that), I don't see why more then a single person would need to be involved in dropping off this passport. Now, something to consider: if it was dropped off at a police station, wouldn't that mean that video cameras would have recorded him doing so? Why has no mainstream news source tried to find out more on this?
Hardly. It's been 15 years and this still hasn't garnered much attention in the mainstream media.
You are assuming that there was ever any real passport to begin with. But are you not even slightly concerned that the mainstream media has apparently not even noticed the change? It is much like the identities of many of the hijackers themselves... http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hijackers.html
Ah yes, the Moussaoui trial, where a government prosecutor coached witnesses and Moussaoui couldn't even see the evidence against him, allegedly because of "national security" -.-. Hardly an exemplarary trial, just as the 9/11 Commission was "set up to fail". Sources: http://www.jurist.org/paperchase/2006/03/moussaoui-trial-lawyer-under-criminal.php , http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2004_spr/dunham_hamdi.htm
Actually, no one has to prove anything. We can all go on believing whatever we like. The reason I'm here is because I'd like to persuade others to atleast question the official story concerning 9/11, if not outright disagree with it. Why are -you- here?
It's not odd to me, I understand the agenda.
"Lies change all the time, the truth never changes." - Don't know the author but if anyone does, please tell.
Good question, it's the same one I've asked countless times of OCT defenders where the answer, when rarely given, made no sense.
Separate names with a comma.