How to find God

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No idea why you posted this - has nothing to do with the beliefs of the Ancient Israelites in other Gods - none of which happened to be named Jesus.
     
  2. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    The little gods doctrine sounds like what lead to original sin and the sin of Lucifer and one third of the angels. It doesnt sound godly.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This conversation is not about Jesus - you are in avoidance mode. This conversation is about the other God's that the ancient Israelites believed in - none of which were named Jesus.
     
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  4. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    The Old Testament says that the iniquity of us all was laid upon the Messiah and that the Messiah will be The everlasting Father. The Messiah isn't just a political figure He is God in the flesh who died for the sins of the world. Jesus was wounded for our transgressions and he was bruised for our iniquities. By his stripes we are healed and he was smitten of God and afflicted is a reference to none other than Jesus.
     
  5. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    The Old Testament forbade the worship of those gods.
     
  6. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    didn't know there was such a doctrine .. We are talking about what scripture says .. not man made dogma.

    You can not deal with the meaning of Psalm 82 - a subject on which Journal articles have been written .. and so you revert to demonization of the messenger - desperately trying to bring Satan into the conversation .. but Satan is not mentioned in this verse -least not by name.

    The "Supreme One" is identified in Verse 1 as "EL" One of the 6 or so times El is used as a Proper Name in the Bible - so there is no confusion over what is meant.

    You are seeming to not understand what is being said to you. What part of "El" was the God of Abraham is not sinking in ?

    Now we can debate if YHWH was this same God - or a Son of this God .. but, what is not debated in any serious circles is that Abraham knew some God by the Name of YHWH. Even the Bible tells us that this epithet/name was not known .
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why are you still going on about Jesus ? .. Not the topic.
     
  8. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    Abraham used to be a worshiper of other gods before he seeked the one true God.
     
  9. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    Because someone was posting messianic prophecies.
     
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) God's other than who ?
    2) True in the case of the Israelites under Moses - The Israelites believed in other Gods but were only to Worship YHWH. This was explained previously .. citing Deut 32:8 ..

    When El "Elyon" - The Most High - divided the nations among the his sons .. YHWH's portion was Israel. YHWH was the patron God of the Israelites - and they were only to worship him.

    The Israelites don't do a great job of this though .. spending almost no time worshipping this God.
     
  11. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    Other than Yahweh. Just because the Israelites might have believed in other gods doesn't mean their beliefs were true or were godly.
     
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You were - in an attempt to avoid discussion of scripture relating to other Gods - not named Jesus .. or YHWH :)
     
  13. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    This analogy is like people who say that Allah is the moon god. I think the nature of Allah in the Koran is different from Yahweh in the Bible but just because they shared the same name doesn't mean that Allah is the moon god. Yahweh is not El. https://evidenceforchristianity.org...-is-yahweh-derived-from-the-caananite-god-el/
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True - but neither does it mean they were not Godly :) From OT scripture we find that belief in the various Gods was quite Godly indeed :)

    As for whether the beliefs in other Gods was True - again the Bible tells us of the existence of these other Gods - not as Idols but as real entities .. "Sons of the Supreme One" who visit the Most High in heaven from time to time .. to pay homage - and other times some of these Gods carry out the will of the most high .. Such as when Satan torments Job .. and tests Jesus.

    So if you believe the Bible is True - then the existence of other God's is True.
     
  15. Buri

    Buri Well-Known Member

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    The opinion of one loon validates your baseless theory?


    Of course it does.
     
  16. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    Muslims believe in Christ being a miracle worker, John the Baptist, the Virgin Mary, and the second coming of Christ, but they dont believe in Christ being a Creator and a Savior. The details of belief systems that existed in the Old Testament might have had some superficial similarities to Christianity but the essence was different. The Sons of God in the book of Job refers to angels not to polytheism.

    https://evidenceforchristianity.org...ow-do-you-explain-allah-and-other-religionsr/

     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not sure why you bring Islam into the equation - yet in another attempt to divert mind away from topic.... followed by the completely unsubstantiated claim "YHWH" is not El.

    Despite your lack of support for claim - I agree with it. Scripture tells us that YHWH is a son of El. The "Most High" to Abraham was El - this was the one God at the top of his Pantheon .. the God he worshiped. Abraham knew naught of YHWH.
     
  18. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Because you said that ancient Israelites made no mention of Jesus Christ. Granted Isaiah didn't mention the name Jesus. But he did speak of our fallen nature and the need for and coming of a human sacrifice rather than a dove, goat, sheep, etc., to save us from our sins. He said he would be the Mighty God and Everlasting Father, Wonderful, Counsellor. He said he would be born like a root out of dry ground(virgin birth?) and that he would die for us. Clearly Jesus confirms Isaiah and vice versa.
     
  19. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We are talking about the various other Gods mentioned in the OT - including other "sons of God". This has nothing to do with prophetic passages in Isaiah - and certainly Isaiah did not know the name of Jesus.
     
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  20. Gentle- Giant

    Gentle- Giant Well-Known Member

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    Robert Wright wrote a wonderful book called the Evolution of God. Just think how far God has come over the years, from the days when we used to throw virgins into the valcano to apease him to the point where he is sacrificing his only begoten for us. It takes a look at a wide array of gods coming out of the Mediterraenean region.
     
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  21. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    The Bible says that angels are the sons of God, and angel worship is forbidden.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nice topic .. may check it out. Have studied the evolution of God/Religious belief for many years

    El was the "Most High" "Creator" and so on to the entire near east pretty much. The Sumerian dynasty - in one form or another having lasted for 3000 years ... finally ending round 500 BC when Persia took the reigns.

    So it was not just Abraham that believed El was the Most High ... everyone did. The distinction of Abraham was to stress the worship of only this God.

    These shared religious beliefs went deep - as we know know through the Urgaritic Religious texts.

    Over time .. in a process known as syncretism (sp?) the traits of El were fused on to YHWH .. who started out as a Son of God .. but over time usurped the position of "The Father"

    Now where have we heard that one before :)
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No actually - older Bibles did not say the sons of God were "angels" ever. - Modern Translations will - in some cases - translate as angels - but this is known interpolation ..deliberate mistranslation - aka "Pious Fraud".

    Speaking of which - You have yet to produce a modern translation of Deut 32:43 - desperate to avoid this uncomfortable topic - so I do this for you below. Bold is what is found in Older Bibles. below that is the modern translation.

    "O heavens, rejoice with Him Bow to Him, all divinities Bow to Him, all sons of the divine
    O nations, rejoice with His People And let all angels of the divine Strengthen themselves in Him.

    For He’ll avenge the blood His sons, Be vengeful And wreak vengeance And recompense justice On His foes, Requite those who reject him and the Lord will and Cleanse His people’s land"


    "Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
    for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
    he will take vengeance on his enemies
    and make atonement for his land and people"

    Note that the Divinities - sons of the divine are in heaven rejoicing with the Most High - yet subservient.
    Below that are the nations - and humans. Below that are the angels.

    Angels are clearly distinguished from the "sons of God" - which is why this part of the passage was wiped clean.
     
  24. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    The book of Genesis uses the expression sons of God to refer to the fallen angels. It's also a reference to the holy angels.
    https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-...-or-what-are-the-sons-of-god-in-genesis-62-4/
    https://www.biblestudy.org/question/are-angels-sons-of-god.html
     
  25. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can find many many links trying to apologize for the "sons of God" - all of which are lying to you - or while perhaps not intentionally so as this is someone like you or me starting a web page with an agenda.

    This is not the Truth though - and this is a demonstrable fact .. as per the scripture lesson I just gave you on Pious Fraud.

    Perhaps you did not know this existed until today - but - it is what it is - certain things from the past the transcribers did not like they just conveniently left out.

    In the case of the Masoretic Text - 700-900 AD - most of Deut 32:43 is wiped out.. the MT is what is used in modern translations.
    Go to a text - pre - common era however .. such as the two presented on page 7 of this link.. http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DT32BibSac.pdf

    Here is an article you might like from the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures - on Psalm 82 .. entitled "El as the speaking voice" http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_144.pdf

    Here is the Encyclopedia Britannica "Abraham" https://www.britannica.com/biography/Abraham - telling you that the God of Abraham was "El"

    This is not something that is debated in serious circles. but - this should not matter to your theology. You just don't understand your theology .. if I may be blunt.

    let us distinguish here between "what you believe" ...and the theology of denomination you belong to. You have been trotting out the standard narrative - guessing Evangelical or Fundamentalist of some other variety .. perhaps Pentecostal in nature . just guessing here.

    Did you think I was not aware of the standard narrative? That I just woke up this morning and sourced a passage from the LXX - translated into english ? Silly Rabbit .. "Trix are for Kids" - hopefully you have seen the commercial :)

    You are all over the map - grasping here -- running there .. everywhere but on scripture - that which is under discussion..

    This is not what solid foundation is built on my friend. End of Sermon on the Mount - Matt 7.
     

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