Hydrogen Powered Trains

Discussion in 'Science' started by Diablo, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    27,705
    Likes Received:
    21,104
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Water? If it is, we're F'd and theres nothing to be done.
     
  2. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There's also the relationship between the amount of electricity necessary to move the trains at a useful speeds/payload, and the H2 capacity of the fuel cells - current locomotives have diesel engines in the 3400-3500 kW power range.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  3. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Water vapour
     
  4. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How does that work?
     
  5. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    https://www.greenandgrowing.org/is-water-vapor-a-greenhouse-gas/
    Quote:
    There is no novelty when saying that climate change is still affecting our planet. Besides other types of pollution and greenhouse gases, there are some who are wondering: Is water vapor a greenhouse gas? Water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas on Earth. However, many experts discuss the extent of its contribution. Scientists used NASA satellite information to estimate the ‘heat-trapping effect of water in the air.’

    Therefore, they confirmed that the role of the gas is a critical component of climate change. Moreover, the heat-amplifying effect of water vapor is so dangerous that it may double the warming events determined by high CO2 levels in the atmosphere.
     
  6. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Depends on the output of the fuel cell and its capacity.
    It also depends on if the H2 is stored as a liquid.
     
  7. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's stored as a liquid in steel cylinders afaik.
    So make bigger fuel cells I suppose.
     
  8. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Infrastructure limits the overall size to that of current locomotives/rail rolling stock.
    You could conceivably store the H2 in tender cars following the locomotives.
    So, again, it depends on the output of the cells themselves and the operating characteristics of same - and in any case, 2H and 1O will only generate so much power, regardless of the cell design.
    You'll also need power to refrigerate the H2.
     
  9. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The train that's working so far seems to go OK, plus there are a couple of trains working in Germany, so I'm not sure that's a problem. You don't need to refrigerate the gas, it's liquified and stored in cylinders.
     
  10. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    18,135
    Likes Received:
    13,224
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Maybe.

    There must still be lubricants involved for the moving parts. There would likely be a greater requirement for lubrication, due to the lack of such properties inherent in the fuel. Inevitably, molecules of the lubricant would be exhausted along with the water vapor.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  11. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    When you say 'train' I think of 100+ coal cars behind 3-4 UP locomotives hauling thru the Rockies. That's -not- what they have.
    You -do- need to refrigerate the tanks as the H2 will boil and expand.
     
  12. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My bad. It's stored as a gas at high pressure.
    Well, I suppose you could have the same number of H-locos ... but ... we're not supposed to be using coal anymore ... 'cos global warming ....
     
  13. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We'll use coal until the market provides a more economical option .
     
  14. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    'cos global warming
     
  15. Liberty Monkey

    Liberty Monkey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2018
    Messages:
    10,856
    Likes Received:
    16,450
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    The UK is intending to use hydrogen trains for a very small portion of the network where electrification is uneconomical.

    At the moment it's a gimmick because as mentioned hydrogen is nearly always made from hydrocarbon fuels, personally I prefer a biofuel solution for trains, boats and planes as I think this far more achievable with nuclear and renewables picking up the slack for grid and manufacturing until we can finally crack OTEC (If we ever do) the holy grail of renewable energy with built in energy storage.

    We can make fertilizers and plastics from sea water but the energy costs are crazy high it's going to take a century for the planet to go close to carbon neutral if we don't have a nuclear war first.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  16. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    10,291
    Likes Received:
    13,163
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    We still have to use energy to make the hydrogen before we can then use the energy of the hydrogen to do something, like make a train go.

    So that means that the hydrogen isn't so much an energy source, as it is a method of energy storage.

    And there's always going to be a not-insignificant amount of energy lost is the storage/conversion process.

    In summation- hydrogen isn't a free lunch.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
    roorooroo likes this.
  17. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    8,386
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Among other things
    Excess electricity from wind and solar could be used, or night time nuclear electricity
     
  18. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    10,291
    Likes Received:
    13,163
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Wind and solar are hardly making a worthwhile contribution to the energy grid as it is. We're a long, long way from the point where we're getting "excess electricity" from wind and solar.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  19. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    10,291
    Likes Received:
    13,163
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh, and there's also other sorts of concerns when hydrogen is involved.

    300px-Hindenburg_disaster.jpg
     
  20. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    8,386
    Likes Received:
    1,704
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well, i have heard many complaints that these produce all their electricity in narrow time bands and therefor their winds up being excess supply during certain periods
     
  21. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2019
    Messages:
    10,291
    Likes Received:
    13,163
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That's not the case. They generate plenty of usable electricity when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining, but they don't generate anything when there's no wind or sunshine. That's the complaint, among others.
     
  22. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Coal and guns; a 19thC man in a 21stC world.
     
  23. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You don't have to like the truth, just accept it.
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  24. Dispondent

    Dispondent Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Messages:
    34,260
    Likes Received:
    8,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If it isn't efficient it can't sell, then its doomed for decades or at least a century in the dust bin. That helps nobody, better to make an efficient system that could sell, and this isn't it...
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  25. Diablo

    Diablo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    2,310
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    We have to cut down greenhouse gases or we won't have a planet, in less than a century. If we have to subsidise renewable energy then so be it.
     

Share This Page