I am sick of recreational abortion! Keep my tax dollars away from mass murderers!

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Aquarius, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Not really. Why can a zygote arguably be considered human but neither a sperm nor egg?
    BTW, adding arguably to it just goes to indicate the weakness of that claim., because like I was saying...
    zygotes, sperm, and eggs all contain human genetic material, they all can potentially become a human adult,
    but none are human adults in their current stages, and none are guaranteed to become human adults.

    -Meta
     
  2. MolonLabe2009

    MolonLabe2009 Banned

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    LMFAO!

    None of those stats specify if the women are married or not.

    The CDC specifically has the stats of married and unmarried women having abortions.
     
  3. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    That shouldn't be too much to ask ,,, to not force people with morals to fund infanticide with our tax dollars. If Democrats want to kill black babies, Roe v Wade says they can.
     
  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    What are your thoughts on this PF Abortion compromise proposal?
    Sounds like it might be right up your alley.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/pf-abortion-reform-compromise.550627/
    -Meta
     
  5. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    Kind of a straw argument. The genetic makeup of the being is not fully defined until the sperm and egg do their thing together. The result is a unique being. The being does not feel pain when it hits a mirror or Playboy magazine. I think we're pretty sure that some short period after conception, the being has feelings ,,, at least at the level of the snail darter that the Tellico Dam was delayed over.

    Even if it is a problem to tell women what to do with what they consider part of their bodies, it should be an equal problem to tell someone they have to underwrite a killing they consider amoral.

    I'm a grandpa to a kid I may never know, but my daughter chose life for the kid even though she wasn't ready to be a mother.
     
  6. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    I wouldn't agree morally with the time frame, but it's not my business. I'm sure there are things that I've done that others would disagree with. In short, if I am not forced to be involved, I have no say. I agree that the persons responsible should pay. I'm good with the next-morning pill when we can be relatively certain that no being will feel pain.
     
  7. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah really.
    That isn't what I said, as the record makes perfectly clear.
    Neither are infants human adults in their current stages, in case you didn't know.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  8. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Uh..... I don't think we're sure about that at all,... its the opposite in fact (assuming we're still talking about a zygote).

    BTW, a snail darter fish has a functioning brain... a zygote does not even have a non-functioning brain.
    It can't perceive pain, it can't sense anything in the conventional sense, and feelings/emotions,
    something else which requires a brain, it doesn't have those either...

    If you want, I can provide you info on when those sorts of brain functions actually do start up.
    For now I'll just leave you with this list of options we used for a Ranked vote a while back.
    A. Lovemaking (Week 0): Because Any Form of Abortion is Murder
    B. Conception (Week 0): Because Life Begins at Conception
    C. Conception (Week 0): Because since no one knows exactly when a zygote becomes a child, it must be assumed to qualify as one
    D. Nervous System (Week 12): Because the baby’s senses are developing and it looks pretty human at that stage
    E. Viability (Week 20): Because the earliest surviving baby was born at just over 21 weeks
    F. Thalamic Afferents (Week 20): Because its been theorized that connections between afferents may be capable of pain transmission
    G. Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 23): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Thalamocortical Fibers
    H. Viability (Week 24): Because that's when the law defines a fetus as becoming a child
    I. Viability (Week 24): Because that's when a fetus is able to live outside the woman without artificial means
    J. Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    K. Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 23-29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    L. Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 20-29): Because this is the period in which a fetus develops the structures necessary for pain perception
    M. Mental Life (Week 29): Because fetal consciousness cannot and has not been observed to occur before this point
    @. Medical Community (Week ??): Because the decision should be left to the doctors and patients who are more than capable
    N. Birth (Week ??): Because That is When a Baby No Longer Depends On Its Mother to Live
    O. Birth (Week ??): Because Women Should Always Have the Right to do What They Want With Their Body
    P. There should be Exceptions in cases of Rape
    Q. There should be Exceptions if Health of the Mother is Threatened
    R. There should be Exceptions if Life of the Mother is Threatened
    S. There should be Exceptions for Certain Fetal Abnormalities
    T. There should be Exceptions for Incest
    U. There should be Exceptions based on Ability of Parent to Afford and Care for the Child
    V. There should be No Exceptions to the Cutoff Point

    W. Graduated Restrictions and Requirements for Women Seeking Abortion as Gestational Age Increases
    X. Use Tech to Remove Human Reproduction to an Industrial Process
    Y. General Abortions Paid for by Person Getting It (Not the Government)
    Z. Loan Program to Help Fund People Who Want to Get General Abortion
    #. Improve Availability of Contraceptives
    $. Where Abortions banned, State/Govmt/Taxpayer money used for any costs needed to keep pre-term infants alive
    &. Abortion Issue Should be State-by-State Issue NOT Federal
    £.
    !0. Nothing Needed Beyond Cutoff Point and Exceptions (Status Quo Option)
    !1. Don't Feel Qualified/Knowledgeable Enough To Vote In This Poll
    !2. No Strong Feelings One Way Or The Other
    Linked explanations for each of those at the following link:
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...te-how-should-the-law-handle-abortion.539893/

    -Meta
     
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  9. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Even if you aren't from the U.S.A., as citizens of democracies (which I assume you are), all of us do in fact get a say as to what the law should be. If there are disagreements among folks on certain issues, often times a compromise between the extremes is required in order to move forwards. Abortion appears to be one such issue. So even if its not your ideal, do you think you'd still be able to agree to a proposal like that as a compromise with your fellow citizens?

    Well, that's a pretty safe bet. As the list I sent you in my previous post implies, pain perception isn't possible before the 29th gestational week once the brain's Thalamocortical Fibers become functional. In fact, the Thalamocortical Fibers aren't even present before the 23rd week. If you choose to believe an as of yet unproven theory, you could go as early as the 20th week when Thalamic Afferents form. At any rate, all of these points in time are well well well *beyond the time at which something like the morning after pill is doing its thing...

    -Meta
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  10. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Are these people with “morals” going to fund the care of the unwanted children? And this is NOT about “black” babies
     
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  11. hellofromwarsaw

    hellofromwarsaw Well-Known Member

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    The point is they already have children and do not fit your mythology. Are there any rates thank God for ObamaCare expanded Medicaid and free birth control which cut abortions by 40% immediately.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  12. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Dear Gods and little fishes!

    Please please do not tell me you think the “morning after” pill is either reliable or a method of abortion!

    https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/plan-b#1
    upload_2020-1-12_11-44-55.jpeg
     
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  13. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Nope.

    Oh, you did say "human being" didn't you...
    Well OK then. Why can a zygote arguably be considered a "human being" but neither a sperm nor egg?
    After-all... zygotes, sperm, and eggs all contain human genetic material, they all can potentially become a human adult,
    but none are human adults in their current stages, and none are guaranteed to become human adults.

    Of course they aren't.

    -Meta
     
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  14. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    No it is not always a “unique human being”

    The process of mitosis can and often does lead to chromosomal abnormalities
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  15. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    you twist very well...

    show me where i suggested any limits... i didnt...

    what i said was, specifically, that if an expectant mom wanted to abort the parasite within her, it's solely her choice, regardless of gestation period/length...

    what say you... stop sidestepping, tell us your specific feelings/thoughts on the subject...
     
  16. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Twist?... Look, I already told you my feelings, and I answered your question...
    So why not answer the one I asked you?...... I'm not saying that you suggested any limit,
    I'm asking you if you support, oppose, or are indifferent to a proposal like the following being the law of the land:

    24 week gestational cutoff point for abortions with exceptions for life/health of the mother,
    rape, incest, or fetal abnormality. Increased availability of contraceptives.
    Ability for states to set up abortion loan programs,...
    Again, would you support that law, oppose it, or would you be indifferent to it?

    -Meta
     
  17. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Because the status of a fetus as a human being an hour before birth is not reasonably questionable, and there is no nonarbitrary point between then and conception at which the entity can be deemed anything but a human being.
    So does what comes outa my ass.
    No, neither sperm nor egg can do that by itself en utero.
    Then you're OK with infanticide. Right?
     
  18. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    I have issues with letting states decide, primarily because the history of abortion is messed up at the state level. Just look at the news.

    This is an issue that should be between a patient and a doctor. Period!
     
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  19. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, for purposes of deciding on where the legal abortion cutoff ought to be, there are several non-arbitrary points.
    The following being just a few of the more notable ones...
    • Viability
    • Pain Perception
    • Mental Life/Consciousness
    You're making my point for me... unless you think what comes out of your ass ought to have some sort of rights...

    So now being en utero is part of the requirement too? That doesn't really make much sense if so...
    Or is the need to have other cells interact with them the key disqualifier here, because the same can be said of the zygote of course.

    Of course I'm not OK with infanticide. Are you?

    -Meta
     
  20. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you wanted to improve the American breed you would make abortions free and even pay the woman to abort . Only low iq poor and minorities eligible . Excluding Asians of course.

    Culling out the right group is just good breeding principles . Applied science

    Come to think of it using science in public policy could create something the Nazis wanted.
     
  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Well the only sorts of things states would be deciding under that proposal would be
    whether or not things like state loan programs ought to be set up to help abortion patients
    fund their abortions, or if a particular additional exception should be made to the cutoff point.
    Otherwise, the cutoff would be 24 weeks gestational with exceptions for life/health of the mother,
    rape, incest, fetal abnormality,... regardless of what state you were in...

    -Meta
     
  22. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Anyone or anything that interjects between the patient doctor relationship is useless, especially and specifically the issue of abortion.

    I predict this will be a moot topic in about 10 years, and the new war cry by the religious intolerant will be to discriminate against children who have been artificially gestated.
     
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  23. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    It appears that you've arrived at the best compromise possible under the circumstances --- if your science is accurate. I have no reason to doubt it.
     
  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    WTF ?!
     
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  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    Yes, if you want the fetus to have the right to use another's body to sustain their life then that means the fetus has more rights than anyone .

    That's impossible....no woman can demand that another person use their body to sustain her life....no woman can demand another person give her their heart or kidneys or blood.... NO ONE CAN.


    But you think a fetus can so that means you think a fetus has more rights than women or anyone else...


    Unable to refute or even address one word.....pathetic.....I guess when one has no real argument it's best to yell Poppycock! ...how about "Balderdash", that, too , could hide the fact you have no answers :)






    OMGAWDJUSTOMGAWD....

    (I don't know what is worse, your response if you did read my post or if you didn't. It looks like you didn't....but..
     
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