I expect an annual booster, like the flu shot

Discussion in 'Coronavirus (COVID-19) News' started by (original)late, Mar 28, 2022.

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  1. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    Do you? What does a bell curve have to do with the absolute number of deaths between 2 years?
     
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  2. Starcastle

    Starcastle Well-Known Member

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    Biden and the democrats all got excited over Omnicron. They thought they could ban life as we know it for another couple of years.

    Biden instantly stopped travel to 8 African countries even though most of them had not one case of the virus. I guess the folks at CNN and MSNBC forgot to call him a racist.

    If somebody can come up with an annual shot that will reduce my chances of getting sick by 50% I'll think about taking it. I do get the flu vaccine every year and I got the Pfizer Covid vaccine. When they talk about giving it to little kids or claiming you need multiple "boosters" you know that is wrong.

    These sick people trying to hurt kids and trying to make a race issue out of everything. They need to be politically destroyed.
     
  3. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    "The United States passed yet another grim coronavirus milestone in November: We have now seen more deaths from the virus in 2021 than we did in all of 2020 — despite the advent of vaccines.



    The comparison between 2020 and 2021 is also inapt in that Trump was still president in early 2021, and the effects of choices made before Biden took over (such as Trump not really encouraging people to get vaccinated) lingered into Biden’s early presidency. The biggest wave of the coronavirus in this country, in fact, peaked around the exact time Biden was inaugurated on Jan. 20. Inheriting a trendline that showed 3,000 deaths per day, as Biden did, is a recipe for inflating your numbers.

    The 425,000 deaths we saw in Trump’s 10-plus months accounted for nearly 20 percent of all worldwide deaths, according to data from Johns Hopkins University.

    Since Biden took over, the world as a whole has seen more deaths in his 10 months (3.07 million) than the preceding 10 months (2.14 million), but the United States has seen fewer. In Biden’s 10-plus months, the United States has accounted for less than 12 percent of worldwide deaths, which is down from 19.9 percent under Trump."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/11/30/biden-trump-compare-covid-deaths/

    That's because Biden did his job..

    Biden took over at the peak of the curve, which makes a straight comparison of deaths meaningless.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
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  4. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Nope, diseases that mutate usually become less severe, doesn't have to be that way.
     
  5. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    It is statistical not a direct relationship. Viruses that kill the host are less likely to spread. So less virulent forms are statistically driven to dominate.
     
  6. Big Richard

    Big Richard Banned

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  7. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    IF the vax is effective at lowering death rates we would not expect to see a bell curve at all.
     
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  8. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    If the curve is measuring mortality, then lower death rates means reduced mortality..
     
  9. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    There were not a million COVID deaths.
    Pfizer is killing/injuring more people than anything else. They didn't "save" me, as I didn't take any of their jabs.
     
  10. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Liberals worry about climate change, atomic war, man's inhumanity to man. They're concerned that the government might force them to have children they don't want.
    Conservatives worry about vaccines controlling our behavior and whether the guy in the next stall really is a guy. They're concerned the government might be coming to take away their guns.
    But we're the ones who let emotions control our reasoning and don't view the world realistically
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2022
  11. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Why?
     
  12. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    That likely came out of the fever swamps, like Qanon...
     
  13. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because it knows when it is not needed. It atrophies just like muscles when it is not needed. Follow the research.
     
  14. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You take strong ant-biotics every time you get a sniffle? See how that works for you. St. Fauci is gonna have you doing all kinds of things!
     
  15. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  16. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    That was interesting, if bizarre.

    Your immune system doesn't atrophy from vaccines.

    "Studies on the diversity of antibody specificities indicate that the immune system has the capacity to respond to extremely large numbers of immunologically distinct regions of viruses and bacteria. Current data suggest that the theoretical capacity determined by the genes that make different antibodies would allow for as many as 109-1011 different kinds of antibodies (i.e., 1 billion to 100 billion).

    Using this estimate, one would predict that if 11 vaccines were given to infants at one time, then about 0.1 percent of the immune system would be "used up."


    However, because B cells and other lymphocytes are constantly replenished, a vaccine never really "uses up" a fraction of the immune system. For example, the immune system has the ability to replenish about 2 billion lymphocytes each day. This replacement activity illustrates the enormous capacity of the immune system to generate lymphocytes as needed."
    https://www.chop.edu/centers-progra...enter/vaccine-safety/immune-system-and-health
     
  17. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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  18. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

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    Vaccine:

    a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.
    "every year the flu vaccine is modified to deal with new strains of the virus"
     
  19. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This part of what you posted is why I believe what they call the COVID vaccine is not a vaccine. Thought it was just a T-cell booster. I may be misinformed, just wanting to learn more.
     
  20. 19Crib

    19Crib Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I heard Biden say to the effect that the US can’t afford the 4th dose, so it’s on you.
     
  21. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    You produce antibodies to the spike protein [a part of the virus] that allows the virus to enter cells.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
  22. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    There has been a lot of misinformation from pro vaxxers and anti vaxxers on the subject so it’s hard to know what to believe if infectious disease and vaccine technology isn’t part of one’s everyday life.

    Here are some high points. If I’m not clear or you have other questions I’m here to help with accurate information or further explanation.

    1). The current Covid vaccines (mRNA and adenovirus vector technology) are vaccines because they stimulate the adaptive immune system similarly to natural infection (with some very important differences), eliciting production of neutralizing antibodies, memory B cells, and memory T cells capable of recognizing SARS-CoV-2 and responding to prevent infection or severe disease if infection does occur. In this discussion we will limit to viral pathogens and vaccines.

    It is not accurate to say mRNA Covid vaccines are not vaccines because they elicit immune response much the same as modified live (attenuated) vaccines, killed vaccines, synthetic subunit vaccines, and recombinant vaccines that are all in common use. Each of these technologies was novel at some point, but because they are all natural antigens or mimic natural antigens (antigens are the various structures on viruses our immune systems can identify and respond to as foreign and not belonging in the body) they were referred to as vaccines. Because they elicit adaptive immune response, the technology doesn’t define whether they are a vaccine or not—their effect on the immune system determines if they are a vaccine or not.

    Where things get shady from the pro vaxxers is the claim mRNA and adenovirus vector vaccines are not gene therapy. Both technologies fit the biological definition of gene therapy and are gene therapies. However, by US code, because they act as vaccines, they are also legally vaccines as well as gene therapy technology. I like to use the taxi analogy. If I have a Ford Crown Victoria, it is by definition an automobile. If I later paint it yellow and operate it as a taxi under a medallion I purchase, the Crown Vic is a legally a taxi or cab. But it is still an automobile! In exactly the same way, our Covid vaccines are first gene therapies, and second vaccines because that is their current use under law. They are BOTH gene therapy and vaccines. Instead of anyone telling you this, both sides were disingenuous by making false claims not based on reality.

    2). As I mentioned, vaccines (the Covid vaccines are no exception) typically elicit production of antibodies, memory B cells of various types, and memory T cells. Unfortunately, because antibodies are much easier to study than B and T cells, most media and political attention has focused on them and ignored the cellular components of immunity.

    In the most simplistic terms, neutralizing antibodies elicited by Covid vaccines have the ability to prevent infection. In contrast, B and T cells don’t have the ability to prevent infection, but are VERY effective at preventing severe disease. Also, in simplistic terms, antibodies fade quite rapidly after vaccination whereas cellular immunity is much longer lasting. This is one reason many vaccinated individuals eventually get infected, but fewer end up hospitalized or dead.

    In short, people who say vaccination is all about antibodies are providing misinformation. People who say vaccination is all about T and B cells are providing misinformation. It’s about all the above. It has to be because all three operate in numerous positive and negative feedback loops and depend on one another to perform different vital functions to protect us.

    3). While vaccination does activate the adaptive immune system similarly to infection, it is not the same unfortunately. There are a handful of differences where current vaccines fall a bit short of the quality of immunity provided by natural infection. Here are a few.

    —Covid vaccines do not elicit production of long lived plasma cells (LLPC) which are a specialized type of memory B cell that resides sometimes permanently in the bone marrow, constantly producing antibodies that are very good at recognizing new variants. Natural infection does produce LLPC. All current evidence leads to the short time period the vaccine induced spike protein (antigen) remains in the body being the reason. In a natural infection, more antigen (spike protein, nucleocapsid, etc.) is present for a longer period of time, allowing the formation of LLPCs.

    —Natural infection leads to more antibody affinity maturation (ability of antibodies to recognize and neutralize new variants). Again, it looks like the longer time period antigen remains in the body and the amount of antigen from natural infection is responsible. Booster vaccine doses are helping induce more affinity maturation, but it’s still less than occurs after infection.

    —T cells produced through natural infection appear to be more active in the upper respiratory tract than T cells from vaccination. This is not surprising. In most cases the only way to elicit great T cell and antibody activity in the nasopharyngeal areas is with a nasally administered vaccine. In my world (animal vaccines) the most efficacious respiratory vaccines are now nasally administered for this reason. This allows response to infectious disease to be faster—right at the point of infection—and results in milder diseases, often asymptomatic.


    We are still learning a lot about immunity and vaccination. I’ve been heavily exposed to vaccine technology and infectious disease prevention and treatment for 25 years. I thought we had a lot of virology and immunology figured out. We didn’t. We have learned more about virology and immunology from Covid than we would have in 10 years without it. That’s a silver lining I guess. I’d say we probably know 10% of what there is to know about the subjects. Maybe less.
     
  23. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fine with me. No part of my participation in society was ever predicated on me getting a flu shot. I fully support the covid vaccine being exactly the same.
     
  24. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wow! Thank you very much. I was a little confused as I only knew how vaccination was derived from what I learned in high school. That was a lot to ingest. I had a doctor tell me all the booster is, is more of the initial vaccine. I now have natural immunity after having the initial vaccine. Don't think I'll be getting any boosters.
     
  25. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Yep. The first, second, and following booster doses are identical. It is advantageous to use a vaccine from a different manufacturer for a booster if one chooses to do so. The antigens are all a little different from each manufacturer and the more antigens you are exposed to the better.

    I know what you mean about things progressing. Much of what I was taught in college about viruses and vaccines is pretty outdated. I try to keep up because I have to keep my animals healthy. :)

    A natural infection plus vaccination is superb (the best) protection. It’s unlikely a booster would be advantageous. It may reduce chance of infection very slightly for a very short period of time, but would do VERY little to decrease chance of severe disease.

    All the vaccinated and boostered folks will get infected eventually and gain added protection from that infection. It’s unavoidable at this point with the new variants.

    You can add very substantial protection from infection and severe disease by eating well, exercising and getting adequate sleep and water intake. These lifestyle choices are as or more effective at preventing infection and severe disease as vaccination alone and all add to the efficacy of vaccines (Covid as well as others). Covid is really a lifestyle disease we have quite a bit of control over.

    Glad to help with information when I can. Stay well. :)
     
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