I suspect that Socrates did not exist

So all Liberals are exactly the same?

 

These days, yes.

 

Can a Liberal be saved?

 

Only if they repent of their sins...But, most of them don't believe in Christ and his atonement.

 

So some Liberals do believe in Christ and his atonement but others do not?
How do you know the difference?

 

When liberals talk about God as not being real. Just a good way to live. They don't believe in the after life so there is no atonement. I know liberals who believe in the afterlife and we will be judged. And, Christ atoned for our sins for that purpose. Liberals often use their ideologies to show how compassionate they believe they are. But lack the knowledge to know their methods are not proper nor correct. Illegal crossings at our boarder is an example of where liberals think it's a good method showing our love and compassion for poor people from other countries. But, it's not because it destroys the liberty and freedoms they are searching for. Thus, they need to come in the right way and the legal way.

 

What if a Liberal believed in Christ and his atonement AND also believed in a relaxed border policy?

 

SNL, Maher, lefty comedians poke fun at liberals all the time, and we laugh.

No, it's the right who can't take a joke at their expense.

 

That's not the question here. The question is, "So some Liberals do believe in Christ and his atonement but others do not? How do you know the difference?"
The relaxed border policy would identify the person as a possible liberal. Add on the idea that abortions on demand are proper would be a dead give away.

 

Nope. You are wrong. Maher looks for applauses when he tells a joke, not laughs.

 

Yes but what if they believed in the atonement of Christ and abortions on demand? Could they be saved?

 

If they repent. They may never have committed abortion murder, but supporting it is the act of committing the crime within the spirit of the commandment. But, our duty is to always forgive, teach that there is a better way and leave the final judgment to the Father and Son.

 

So would they have to cease supporting the Democrat party to be eligible for salvation?

 

No, they can stay and try to correct the party's directions supporting Satan.

 

So it sounds like you believe that the Democrat party is the party of Satan. Do you also believe that the Republican Party is the party of Jesus?

 

Nope...Satan has taken over the hearts and minds of Democrat politicians and many of their rank and file. The rest are just pawns in the game of life.

 

Do you think the Democrat party was always under the influence of Satan or is this a recent thing?

 

@Cougarbear

Don’t stop now!

 

Interesting theory, and because Socrates did not leave us with any writings of his own we will always be left to wonder about these things. In response, here is some additional food for thought and references:

First, to the question concerning Socrates' existence.

As you may be aware, the Athenian military leader and historian Xenophon, who is most famous for Anabasis, his account of the ill-fated military expedition to Persia by the so-called Ten Thousand, and Helenika, his history of the Peloponnesian War that picks up where Thucydides left off in 411 BC, was another notable pupil of Socrates, and some think he gives us a more accurate picture of the great philosopher. If anyone is interested, all four of Xenophon's works on Socrates (and his trial) are available here:


https://www.amazon.com/Xenophon-Mem...ds=xenophon+memorabilia&qid=1631816680&sr=8-3


Another famous source that corroborates the existence of Socrates was the Athenian playwright Aristophones, who lampooned Socrates in specific and and sophists in general in his comedy The Clouds:



Free online here:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2562/2562-h/2562-h.htm

Of course, there are others who wrote about Socrates, but of them only Xenophon and Aristophanes (and Plato) were his contemporaries.

What I find interesting about those two particular men is that Xenophon was sympathetic towards Socrates and his philosophy and Aristophanes was not. In fact, Aristophanes' attitudes towards the sophists was typical of those harbored by Socrates' enemies, and it is thought by some (perhaps Plato, as well) that The Clouds may have played a role in the philosopher's indictment and trial. One has to remember and consider that plays were not merely entertainment in Ancient Greece, they often served as propaganda that reflected, promoted and influenced the opinion of the polis.

With that in mind I think we have enough evidence to conclude that Socrates did indeed exist.

As for Plato and Socrates, I think it can be difficult to determine from Plato's works who believed and said what, so Xenophon's works are somewhat helpful but only to a limited degree. However, I think if you read enough about Socrates and Plato one can detect a few things from their temperaments and attitudes that tell us that they were indeed two distinct individuals and Socrates was not merely a projection of Plato and his own beliefs. Chief amongst them, in my estimation. was Socrates' uncompromising iconoclasm, most particularly towards religion. Given that Ancient Athens and many other city-states were in many respects theocracies, where religion and state were inextricably intertwined, this was an extremely dangerous undertaking - it made Socrates both a blasphemer and a traitor.

To get a better picture of that, I highly recommend reading Fustel de Coulanges' masterpiece The Ancient City: A Study of the Religion, Laws, and Institutions of Greece and Rome, which provides us with one of the keenest insights into the all-encompassing role religion played in the lives of the Hellenes:


https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-City-Religion-Institutions-Greece/dp/0801823048

Interesting topic, Patricio. Cheers.

 

Thank you for this, and yes, the evidence points to Socrates being a real person. I just wonder to what extent, if at all, did Plato attribute to Socrates that which was his own? I'll check out the book. I was reading Marcus Aurelius, another fascinating person.

 

You're welcome, and your question is a fascinating one.

If you're referring to the Xenophon collection, Memorabilia is considered the most important work and you can find free versions of it online.

On the other hand, if you're referring to Fustel de Coulanges' book The Ancient City, I strongly encourage you to check that out. It's an amazing piece of scholarship that will take you all the way back to the origins of Greek philosophy which is an offspring of their primeval religious beliefs that are rooted in the family. You'll see all of that reflected not only in the works of Plato but most if not all of the great Classical philosophers, including the Romans (ex., Cicero) who shared their religious beliefs.

If you don't mind me asking, what made you interested in the subject of Socrates and Plato - do you have a philosophy degree yourself? My interest in this comes primarily from the perspective of a historian.

 

Whenever I refer to the concept "the only thing I know for certain is that I know absolutely nothing'. (insofar as waxing philosophical ) I always refer to Socrates. I like the quote because it's serves as honest to the highest degree, as a contrast to so many who pontificate about God, thinking they know stuff when, in my view, if they were honest, they'd be more like Socrates. Also, one can hardly mention Socrates without including Plato in the conversation,

 

It's a great quote and my personal favorite of his, and not only does it remind us that absolute knowledge is unattainable, it encourages people to stay curious and keep inquiring and learning. It also reminds me of Einstein's observation "The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know", which is just another way of expressing what Socrates said.

 

Socrates may have existed.
But he did not say all that is attributed to him.