If killing your baby was acceptable, would more women do it?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Anders Hoveland, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If males didn't insist on being born they wouldn't impregnate her, would you? Do all Americans talk such total drivel?
     
  2. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No ...but far too many do.
     
  3. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have never proved that abortion is detrimental to society. Never. Proved.

    What if? You're proposing a scenario with NO CHANCE of actual occurrence.

    You have brought up a multitude of issues here. First of all, society doesn't have a certain "mindset." The people who make up a society have mindsets all their own, and they don't necessarily agree. Hence the continued discussion regarding abortion. If certain jobs require the participation in abortion services, people are free to get different jobs. They are not free to take a job and then decline to do it because of "conscience" reasons. Taxpayer money does not pay for abortions, so people getting all hurt about that are just imagining things. Men have no right to expect women to bear children for them, they do have an obligation to choose women who want to bear their children, provided they do want children.

    Child porn is destructive to children, it harms their well-being and interferes with their functioning as a whole member of society. Sodomy laws are an example of laws that should never have been passed, since what members of society do sexually in private has NO effect on society as a whole. Prostitution laws are controversial because they may harm the stability of the family, and family stability is necessary for an orderly society. People decide what is moral or immoral for themselves and they will simply not obey a morality law that they disagree with. Society can influence morality in the community by practicing shunning or overwhelming disapproval of an action, but criminalizing it doesn't work.
     
  4. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you don't want a child, it isn't a blessing. It's as simple as that. And that is what you don't get.

    Nonsense, many anti-abortionists want to control women by using the fear of pregnancy/childbirth to keep women and girls from choosing to have sex. That is why they want abortions criminalized and also the most reliable birth control, and they do not want young people exposed to the knowledge, via comprehensive sex ed, that they can prevent a pregnancy. They want to reinstitute the stigma that used to surround unmarried motherhood. That attitude is exposed by posters who use such terms as "she shouldn't have spread her legs", or "if you play, you pay", or "actions have consequences."

    Abortion is being responsible for the action, and that is what you don't get.
     
  5. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    I asked you if IYO thought late term abortions should be legal for any reason any time. yes or no

    I know very well what the law says....asking your opinion.
     
  6. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    tecoyah said,

    Then explain this statement you made.....
    If you don't think you can answer a question based on your sex..then why debate abortion at all? You obviously do not feel qualified, you said it so yourself. If so then what are you doing in abortion threads?

    Then you said this....

    Its not up to you however is it? You cant allow or not allow your girlfriend or wife to abort or not to abort...you are not an issue...its not up to you....you are a none issue...so says the law. It says abortion is a private decision because the woman owns her body therefore no woman needs to ask permission from anyone...not even her husband. Do you think you own your wife? What gives you a right to even have a say in what happens?
     
  7. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    So if two parents don't want a child....the child is not a blessing. But if they adopt the child out....could that childs life still be blessing to them? You are saying that a child value is based on those who want or don't want it. Your saying there is no worth to the childs life if a parent or parents don't want them. Sad...

    You talk about phrasing statements. Funny that you bash me for using the term, "spreading legs" and think its horrible...the fact remains however true....the woman does have to spread her legs...in order for the sex act to occur. Then you think its ok to use the word.....TERMINATE ....for KILL. You would never use the term kill to describe the actions of the abortionist. Everything is ok for you....not for me.

    The fact is a woman spreads her legs....to have sex. Or do you know of a way pregnancy can happen without her doing it?

    Abortion is not responsible...not getting pregnant is responsible. Killing is your solution....its never a solution for those who love life...and value it. Your position does neither. That is what you regretfully don't get.
     
  8. churchmouse

    churchmouse New Member

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    I asked a question you refuse to answer. I will try again. In this statement you are giving your opinion...thats it. You are using your sense of morality and judging others. Others might disagree with you...and how can you tell them that their morality is wrong. You want to only use YOUR morality.
    You think the professionals who don't want to have anything to do with abortion....should get another job if they don't kill. Who the hell are you to tell someone that because they won't do abortions they should be a doctor? Who do you think you are? How about this one...honey. If you want an abortion go find someone who will do it or provide it for you? Why not that? Oh no...cause its your way or the highway...the pro-abortion position is the most narrow-minded...viewpoint stance ever. Killing is your only solution. Dismembering, burning, dissecting....anyway you kill that unborn is ok for the pro-abort position. I add position because I can't attack anyone personally .
    This is ok...this isnt' ok....this is ok......oh that isn't ok.....but this is ok......no that shouldn't be ok....but of course this should be ok. ......ALL BASED ON YOUR SENSE OF MORALITY...WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG. BUT I would guess that in the greater scheme of things...we would disagree on just about every moral issue we could come up with. Our world views are polar opposites, we have nothing in common . You say people decide for themselves what they think is right and wrong....exactly why your position should be that all late term abortions should be allowed no matter what reason the woman has or when she wants the abortion. Your position however is hypocritical.

    If you say criminalizing does not help...why have laws at all?
    Why not make selling and using drugs legal?
    Why not allow sex between teenagers?
    Why not allow gambling?
    Why not prostitution legalized? What right do you have to tell a woman she can't have sex? And do it for money.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just reported you for this one.........If you want to call me names like this....private message me so at least I can dish it back.
     
  9. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    When you already have 400,000 children in the care system and a lack of people willing to adopt .. where is the "blessing" then.

    I can see your sex ed wasn't up to much .. a woman doesn't have to "spread her legs" in order for sex to occur .. have you never heard of "doggy style", and why to you call it a "sex act" sounds very puritan to me.

    Quick English lesson for you;

    Terminate .. to bring to an end
    Kill ... to cause the death of

    Pretty much mean the same thing, but just for you and abortion is killing a fetus, guess what I have no problem with that what-so-ever.

    Yep plenty where the woman doesn't have to "spread her legs" at all (one example above), there is, of course, artificial insemination as well.
    You using that term isn't done because it is factually correct it is done purely as a derogatory term towards women.

    TRYING to not get pregnant is responsible, but as you have been shown (yet refuse to believe) even when contraception is used women still get pregnant, your solution is "don't have sex" . .a solution that has been proven to fail.

    but you don't love life, you support the death penalty, you support war, you support leaving the child to its own devices as soon as it clears the vagina .. how can you in any stretch of the imagination say you "love life"
     
  10. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe Fugazi (thank you, Fugazi) has already explained to you that the missionary position is not all. Abortion IS responsible. Not getting pregnant requires responsibility and LUCK. Fugazi has also explained to you the difference between "termination" and "killing", I hope you get it now. Abortion is "termination" of a pregnancy, sometimes the fetus is already dead. Why you are obsessed with "killing", I don't know, it has certainly lost its shock value.
     
  11. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Personally I don't think morals should come into it being as they are as diverse as snowflakes and I agree ALL of us put forward our opinions (though some do base those opinions on actual research)

    I really couldn't give two figs what your moral position is.

    Couldn't careless if a doctor doesn't want to do abortions, if that is their choice then so be it doesn't stop them being doctors in my opinion.
    highlighted part is just a generalization and is about as accurate as me saying all pro-lifers a religious freaks who want to turn back the clock to the days of female servitude.

    Tell me how has criminalizing selling and using drugs worked out . are there no drug problems in the US anymore, for every pusher arrested there are two more waiting to take their place.

    Historically it was allowed, even in the US

    South Africa just recently struck down the law prohibiting consensual sex between teenagers - http://www.iol.co.za/the-star/sex-between-12-and-16-okay-1.1452421#.UTaLAtaePeV

    and if you look through this list of ages of consent you will see a number of countries allow consensual sex for teenagers aged 14 - http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

    Gambling is legal in the US under federal law

    Again in a lot of countries it is legal, and in my opinion should be legal in every country.
     
  12. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Abortion does not violate any Rights of the Person but killing a baby, which is a person, does violate the Rights of a Person. There is no comparison between the two.
     
  13. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Well then its a lie because abortion NEVER relates to children. Childhood begins at birth and not before.

    Murder is the violation of the Right to Life of a Person and does not occur during an abortion as personhood is not established until birth.

    Next is that the above would only be descriptive of abortions driven by medical necessity related to preserving the health or life of the woman. In over 90% of abortions none of those actions described occur.
     
  14. Falena

    Falena Cherry Bomb Staff Member Past Donor

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    Fair Warning.
    Focus on the topic and not on any particular poster or posters.


    Falena
    Political Forum Moderator
     
  15. Whaler17

    Whaler17 Well-Known Member

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    Well it is you who are confused. Both are homicides, the abortion and the killing of the born child. His analogy is solid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    We all know this is BS. Women routinely call the child in their womb their "baby" and their "child" .

    Abortion is the killing of a child in utero, by very definition!

     
  16. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. Sometimes the zef is already dead, if it doesn't abort spontaneously, it must be removed, and that is still an abortion.
     
  17. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    According to the law they are not, you may not agree with it but that puts you in a minority.

    Yes they do, it is an informal usage .. just like calling a homosexual 'gay', where as in a debate the correct terms should be applied, only those who are trying to conjure an image of a cute cuddly baby would not use the correct terms, normally this is done to produce an emotional attachment to their opinion from the person hearing it and whether you like it or not saying it is killing a 'child' or 'baby' is incorrect.
     
  18. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    If it's not okay outside the womb, I would just like to know why it's perfectly okay inside the womb. :confusion:
    Or, if it's not that, I severely question whether a fetus at 8 months is really so different from a fetus at 3 months.


    I believe this is a very pertinent question, Blackrook. Of course it is completely ridiculous and absurd to suggest killing your unwanted 12-year-old child, but no less ridiculous, I believe, than killing a 6 month unborn child. The question is, if it's so obvious that killing a 12-year-old is wrong, why is it not so obvious when it's a 6 month old?
     
  19. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    so why not answer the question in the actual topic . .this one is dead and done, you lost.
     
  20. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    Using to status quo to defend the status quo is a very circular argument. Okay, so the fetus should not be legally classified as a person, because it isn't a person, because it legally isn't classified as a person now, therefore, that's the way it should be.

    The status quo is very stupid and retarded, and it totally denies the fact that the fetus is an organism.
     
  21. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    http://www.lifenews.com/2012/08/10/most-late-term-abortions-are-not-done-for-medical-reasons/

    There are certainly women out there who kill their babies after they are born. Why would you think there would not be women who would abort late term? Especially if it became condoned by society as "not that bad".

    http://www.deccanherald.com/content/316531/mother-kills-baby-dumps-washing.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...let-rescued-ALIVE-Did-mother-raise-alarm.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...aby-putting-microwave-minutes-face-trial.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ted-missing-baby-girl-alive-dumped-ditch.html
    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-02-13/news/9303181575_1_salt-creek-death-penalty-dead-infant


    not just any organism; a human organism
     
  22. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    lifenews is not a credible source.

    .

    While that is extremely rare, it is more common when abortion is illegal or when laws require parental permission or notification, resulting in "dumpster babies." Aren't you ashamed that your support of additional regulation is causing an increase in the number of babies killed?

    Because women bond with the fetus by late-term, and they don't want abortions then. Because if women do want abortions, they have them earlier when they are safer and less expensive unless, of course, they are prevented from having them by government red tape or lack of funds.
     
  23. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    Pro choicers would rather worship women than believe science. The fetus is a human organism, DUH!
     
  24. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Is it? Or is this just another pro-choice myth...

    One of the empty promises in unleashing abortion upon society was that somehow the availability of this procedure would decrease the incidence of child abuse. Yet it was an empty promise. Exactly the opposite has happened. Since the legalization of abortion, child abuse has increased.

    E.F. Lenoski reported as early as 1976, the opposite is actually true. Abuse is more likely to occur among "wanted" children. Canadian psychiatrist Philip Ney reports the same findings. He writes, "When I investigated the relationship between child abuse and abortion and reported a direct correlation, people were angry and astonished. It appeared that the rate of child abuse did not decrease with freely available abortions. In fact, the opposite was true. In parts of Canada where there were low rates of abortion there were low rates of child abuse. As the rates of abortion increased, so did child abuse…Indeed, it is a vicious cycle. That is, parents who have been involved in abortion are more likely to abuse and neglect their children. Mothers and fathers who were abused as children are more likely to abort their child" (Deeply Damaged, p.91).

    According to the National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect, child maltreatment has risen dramatically since the 70s (when abortion became legal). The study, which is congressionally mandated effort to provide estimates for child abuse and neglect in the USA, show a 67% increase in abuse from 1986 and 149% increase from 1981, including increases in physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and physical neglect.

    Of course, the first thing that has to be noted when examining the relationship between abortion and child abuse is that abortion is child abuse.

    Allowing the abuse of an unborn child, then, creates an atmosphere in which -- more quietly and secretly -- we justify the abuse of born children.
     
  25. OKgrannie

    OKgrannie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pro-lifers are fetus worshippers.
     

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