If You Where In Public Place And Heard Shots Fired What Would Prefer To Be Armed With

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Well Bonded, Oct 3, 2019.

?

Your choice of weapon

  1. Nothing

    2 vote(s)
    7.7%
  2. Fists and feet, martial arts

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. A concealable handgun

    20 vote(s)
    76.9%
  4. A retrivalable rifle

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  1. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    your confused, I support the 2nd, even for ex-felons that have done their time... I even support all free Americans being able to conceal their guns without permission from the government

    that said, I think ar-15's should be as hard to buy as machne guns
     
  2. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I sat around and thought about it for awhile and I believe I would rush into the fray. Not because I yearn to be some sort of hero or anything but rather because I know myself well enough. I say that based on past experiences. As you said, there are a few instances where it's hard to explain what the mental process was, you just do it. I was sort of rewired to do that sort of thing.

    I remember watching a documentary on the D-Day landings many years ago. One of the guys who stormed the beach was being interviewed decades later and he said something like this when asked what was going through his brain as they loaded up into the landing craft: (paraphrasing) "You're cold, you're exhausted, you're absolutely mortified with fear, and so is everyone else, but for some reason, you still go".

    I won't even begin to remotely consider myself in even the same hemisphere of courage as those men were, not even close, regardless of whether or not we wear the same patches as they did many decades later. However, I do understand what he meant when he said that having been in a similar mindset on a number of occasions. Standing there in battle gear staring at a crude dirt drawing of a high target morning raid listening to the brief and the only thing running through my mind was "Dear mother of God....". Then having one of your buddies afterwards walk up to you and do the cheesy movie cliche of handing me a letter for his wife....We were all terrified, based on that intel report we KNEW we were going to die. None of us slept that night, but in the wee hours of the morning we all walked onto helicopters and set off into the dawn. Exhausted having not slept, hungry having not ate, and terrified...but we still went. And well....I'm obviously still here.

    I don't think I'd be "able" to run away any more. Once that bolt of adrenaline hits my brain shifts into an entirely different mindset and instinct takes over, reprogrammed instinct that was designed to do stuff that doesn't make any sense such as run towards danger. That's why fireworks and loud bangs still wreak havoc on my psyche. Somebody literally just now as Im sitting here popped off a damn firework somewhere in the neighborhood and shot my blood pressure up LOL. (They're always doing that crap around here). It's not "fear" per say, but more like "danger! fight!" which has me reaching out instinctively for invisible assault rifles that don't exist every time I hear somebody lighting off one of those damn bottle rockets around here.

    Yeah I'm pretty sure I'd run into the fray. Not even because I necessarily want to, I think I just "would"....
     
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  3. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    And yet, they are used to kill fewer people annually than hands and fists.
     
  4. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    I am an avid student of the civil war. I think about the Union soldiers at Cold Harbor, just prior to attacking the Rebel positions, writing their names on pieces of paper and pinning them to their clothes, then lining up to attack, shoulder to shoulder, walking into a killing zone of canon canister fire and accurate massed fire of the new rifles of the time... a prelude to going over the wall, facing machine gun fire in WWI, and knowing what they were facing, fear and all, they went. I think people are capable of far more than they know. But they were generally armed, more likely fought for the one next to them, rather than some moral imperative. But, there is something different about being armed, the feeling that you have a chance to fight back vs being a sheep for slaughter in a gun free zone where only the sheep are gun free.
     
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  5. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Is a mobile phone an option?
     
  6. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Wanna take video, eh?
     
  7. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nuh, call the cops before running away. I’m a coward and would be incapable of rational thought at times like that.
     
  8. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I live rural. Hear gun shots many weeks of the year, usually farmers etc.. shooting pests. So I never do anything other than carry on what I'm doing.

    Likewise in a public place, just cars back firing. If it was gun shots in the public place, I would probably find out in the news later in the day, or next day. Near 52 years later, never heard a gun shot in a public place, I must be lucky.
     
  9. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I will be carrying a handgun if that ever happens, but no one will know unless the shooter turns towards me or my family. Every scenario is different, but unless the shooter is threatening me or my family directly, I will be all ass and elbows to the nearest safety.
     
  10. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Well, the one other unknown, is whether or not there is only one shooter.
    On a slightly off topic note, a fellow that was in one of my introductory training courses attended with an FN 57 pistol. He claimed he selected it because of the round’s reported ability to penetrate class II armor and the pistol’s 20 rd capacity. His choice because of a few reports of active shooters wearing armor...despite the odds of encountering a that scenario over a bad guy likely unarmored.
    I got to shot the gun...very controllable, like shooting .22mags, but I didn’t get the chance to do my own tests on terminal performance of which I am highly skeptical at the moment.
     
  11. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    Hit the deck, try to locate my target before advancing. I'm not LE and am not obligated to immediately run into a flurry of lead. I would prefer to wound and disable my target, and then take him out as painfully as possible with my knife, disembowel if there is time for it.
     
  12. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Fantasies will get you or someone else killed. I have similar ones when I hear of children being victims.
    IMO you end a threat as best and quickly as possible; even a decapitated venomous snake can still be dangerous, but there is the old standard, ‘a wounded, cornered animal....’
    If you watch History’s Viking series, the is an illustrative scene where Earl Sigrid is captured by Parisian forces and as his last request before being beheaded asks that someone hold his hair so a clean cut can be had. A solder complies, and as the axe falls, Sigrid pulls his head back, pulling the soldier’s hand into the axe’s path... Sigrid’s last joke of defiance.
     
  13. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    Well, with that in mind, maybe the old Army method would be better: plant three in 'em and if they're still breathing expend three more.
     
  14. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    IMO, better option. Now, if you happen to wound as a result...
    Except, deliberate dispatching of a wounded target is likely to be seen by the courts as you becoming the aggressor.
    In the case I mentioned above, where children are victimized and I am responding...well, it’s probably the one scenario where I might cross the line despite the consequences and be ok with them. But then, my nightmares stem from witnessing government forces in Guatemala back in the 80’s deliberately fire on a group of Mayan children, some obviously under age 10, and I could do nothing to intervene. First and only time I experienced true rage.
    What happened there in the late 80’s would make My Lai look benign... it was on par with ISIS atrocities, but not much of a peep from US MSM.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  15. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so, I still want guns legal for all free Americans, even ex-felons that have paid back their debt to society, every mother and father has the right to protect their homes and families
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  16. Texan

    Texan Well-Known Member

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    Same here. I was talking about hearing gunshots while inside a mall or Walmart. I hear people shooting all the time on their land. Sometimes it’s me.
     
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  17. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    While the caliber in question has proven capable of such, such applies only to the cartridge configuration reserved for sale to law enforcement and the military. The cartridge capable of penetrating body armor is not available for legal ownership on the private market because it is classified as a handgun cartridge.
     
  18. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    We have several rounds we sell in the shop.
    The reports on Level II armor penetration of the 5.7x28 from a pistol vary.

    As I posted, I and my small group of skeptics have yet to do our own tests on either the gun or the various ammo configurations available. We likely will at some point. Until we do, I remain a skept.
    Regardless, if one carried on and an active shooter incident occurred, my speculation is that while someone returning fire may not end the threat, it might induce an active shooter to retreat even if armored... one would know they are being engaged by lots rounds coming their way but wouldn’t know with what or what their potential level of vulnerability might be. Bad guys generally seek the lowest level of resistance.
     
  19. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well said. No question, every situation would be different. I believe the best defense is to be mentally prepared and able to act instinctively and correctly- and fast. Exactly what you may be armed with is, in my opinion, almost secondary. A well-placed shot with a .22 is far more deadly that a .45 that misses. Precision counts. You see many stories where police have fired a large number of shots, spraying lead instead of hitting the mark. Not good, certainly not something I want to be responsible for.

    I have a self-training process I call snapshooting. Draw fast, fire accurately without aiming. You have to train yourself to the extent that your hand automatically points the gun where your eye looks, with high precision. To build that skill, I made myself a special gun. Took one of those blue plastic replicas of the gun I normally carry (Sig P232, .380) and did some machine work. Now it has a working trigger and a laser in the barrel bore. Drilled and added weight to match the sig. Use the same carry holster. You start slow, draw speed comes with repetition; training muscles to a consistent action. You draw, point to your target and pull the trigger, putting a laser beam out. Every time you do, your brain corrects for your errors and coordinates the muscles involved a little closer to the visual point you want to hit. I carry this at home, shooting laser beams around the house or shop at things like light switches, door knobs, different things at different distances, spontaneously. Easy to do hundreds of times a day if you wish- and pretty soon, you are consistently nailing doorknob size targets at 3-8 yards, the kind of range that most self-defense incidents require. Longer ranges get easier too. I never aim anymore in live fire practice with this gun, never two-hand it. And- I rarely miss now.

    Not too complicated, here's a pic with the Sig and the laser-snapshooter.

    upload_2019-10-8_9-54-47.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  20. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Point shooting has been advocated on and off nearly since guns became available. Lots old gun fighters talked about it (look up Jelly Bryce or Ed Mcgiven), but it takes a great deal of practice and, done from a draw, without fumbling, still requires overcoming the effects of adrenaline in a perceived life/death situation. Precision shooting, particularly at any distance, still requires use of sights.
    The proliferation of modern gun mounted lasers are intended to give the average person a compensated means of simulated point shooting... until they fail (has happened to me).
    Every gun has different ergonomics, different for every person, that can assist in good pointing characteristics for every person. Many of my guns have optics, red dot sights, night sights, or lasers to assist me in accurate shooting, but with every gun (unless a collector piece) I select based on it working for me with natural pointing characteristics for me, which means when I raise my gun to target, the gun will nearly automatically, be positioned aligning the sights for me and then, when I train, I work to be consistent as possible with my hold, sight picture, and trigger mechanics (given my hand size not all guns work for me for trigger mechanic consistency... part of my selection process), regardless of whether I have have optics, a Red Dot, or laser assist. All my firearms are adjusted or selected for fit and while with many, I have good point shooting characteristics, it’s my consistency in training and mechanics that enables me to shoot accurately... if my laser fails, my mechanics and consistency enable a shot. When I am checking a gun as a possible buy, how well it points for me (naturally brings the sights to alignment and I can pull the trigger without the gun moving from alignment) is usually the first test of my selection process.
    I have a few pistols that are exceptional for me for point shooting, but probably the best I ever owned was an original, boxed, 1851 Colt Navy. Under 15-20 yards, if I could see it, I could hit it. This model was Wild Bill’s choice too. Second best, was a 1970’s vintage Browning Challenger .22. With the .22 I could easily hit nearly 100% of clays tossed in the air up to 30 or so ft in front of me. Both the Browning and the colt fit me perfectly and had excellent natural pointing characteristics...for me.
    What works for me may not work for someone else.
    The gun I shot the quickest with accuracy using iron sights, even at running game, my first J.C.Higgins 1950’s .22 rifle. Hmmm, I wonder why.
     
  21. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The shooter is always the biggest variable, and in the end one has to go with the combination that works for you. But of course, technique matters, and much of it can be learned. I spent sunday on a long range shoot, and we had some guys with no experience beyond a few hundred yards. By the end of the day- everyone of them had done pretty well at a thousand yards. I was ringing a 12" gong with a new valkyrie that had just been zeroed, about 30 rounds on the barrel. However one guy with us is a competition shooter, and he showed me a trick that was hard to believe. He shot a .243, putting two shots in the air at once, the second gone before the first hit. I was spotting, and he cleaned a 10-round clip that way- did it five times in a row. Every one a hit, at 1004 yards... with a bolt action. My fascination is how he was able to recover the sight picture so quick, and we talked about it. Today I'm working on a new product design that my business may manufacture, if we can get it right, that greatly reduces the sight picture stability issue based on the techniques he was using. I think that if he tried, he would have been able to have three flying at once. Don't think I would have a prayer of doing it once, let alone repeatedly.

    I feel a lot of the younger generation is missing out on the skills and discipline that shooting sports create.
     
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  22. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The problems with doing that is many.

    First and most important is most PSAP's only have a handful of incoming trunk lines, once those lines get jammed with four to six calls from everyone dialing 911 every else gets a busy signal or is hunted off to another PSAP who's call-taker cannot relay their information to the dispatcher of the jurisdiction the caller is in requiring a handoff to the PSAP which is already jammed with calls.

    Another problem is unless you know the address of where you are, where the shooting is happening within that location and what the shooter looks like, your call is more or less useless.

    Now if you could take cover and keep the call-taker up to date real time as to what is happening, then that would be a very valuable call.

    Now I'm not saying call 911 but if you see people around making calls it's probably safe to assume one of those calls is alerting the authorities.

    By the way being incapable of being able to take action and fleeing is not being a coward, you are actually helping out by not becoming another victim of the shooter requiring the limited resources that can respond to attend to you in addition of the others already shot.
     
  23. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you stop the shooter from shooting, that's the end of it, at that point if you execute the shooter, you more than likely will be charged with pre-meditated homicide.
     
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  24. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's the same out here, Sundays are what we jokingly call range day, around noon or so when people get home from church the families get together and head out back with the kids and burn through some ammo while back at the house a early dinner is being prepared and a few beers are cooling down.

    Unless you are guest staying at my home, where everyday is range day, the only exception being is alcohol, the range is off limits to anyone, including myself who has consumed any amount of alcohol.
     
  25. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's a really smart idea, you ever considered building them to be sold to others?

    That stated I was introduced in front sight aiming, which is to say concentrate on watching the target, bring up the front sight which will normally be out of focus into view into center of mass and fire.

    I have gotten to the point where I can hit within an inch or so at 7 yards.

    Does that work?

    I think it does.

    A while back when I was invited to be run through the City of Miami's police Departments shoot/don't shoot simulator, the simulator indicated I had hit the intended target twice out of two rounds COM within three quarters of an inch.

    And that was with a serious adrenalin rush, within the simulator you become so immersed in what is happening you literally forget it's a simulation and you really believe you are being shot at.

    I was allowed to go through it once and coming out the result was, while I did pretty well on scoring, my body didn't, exiting the simulator the paramedics ordered me to lay on a cot until my blood pressure dropped and stabilized, which took about an hour before they would release me back to the street.

    There where about seventeen civilians there, mostly media, we where teamed up in pairs, the simulation was a routine traffic stop, which is an oxymoron as no traffic stop is routine.

    We where scored on how well we followed instructions and in the end not killing an innocent person.

    I did pretty well, even though I used the wrong codes when calling in the traffic stop, I used Broward, versus Dade codes, actually we where supposed to use no codes, just call in the stop, but I was so realistic I fell back on my training and called in the stop using the proper ten and signal codes, which I still remember, (Bravo 4 we are 51 on a silver Honda Florida ABC-123 at NW 2 street and 27 Ave, occupied 2 times, start a 94 this way), by the way only two of us remembered to do that.

    I earned extra points because I shot the bad guy, not the person who became the hostage, and I only fired two rounds.

    At the end of the demonstration seven hostage's and nine media people where killed, as well as most of the bad guys, laying outside on the cot I could hear what sounded like a war zone in the simulator once the shooting started, a couple of days later the Sargent who got me in the door advised me almost everyone there in cleared their mags once they began shooting, and the majority of the rounds never hit either the bad guy or the hostage.

    Had there been real bullets flying a lot of innocents could have been hit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019

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