illegal to be muscular in Sweden, Belgium

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by kazenatsu, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As part of the war on "toxic masculinity"...

    Basically, 70 cops raided a dozen gym and arrested 40 or so people who they deemed "too muscular" and charged them with suspicion of steroid use.

    excerpt from the article:
    " You have to constantly ask whether muscle growth is reasonable. As a parent or boyfriend or girlfriend might not be so naive. Are you in your 20s and weighs 90 kg in muscle, you should put off "​

    original article in Swedish:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20130226...icleid=8324938


    Well it's only natural that if they look too muscular they must be using steroids.

    No, what this really is is an attack on masculine men. The society is complaining that it's their fault because they shouldn't have been so muscular in the first place.



    For instance, what the hell is going on in Sweden? If you haven’t heard the story of IFBB Pro Bodybuilder Toney Freeman being arrested in Sweden, then be prepared for some shocking revelations. Apparently Swedish police have free reign to profile individuals based on their physical appearance and arrest them on suspicion of being on steroids. That just doesn’t sound right.

    Maybe it’s because of the influence on American culture that it seems pretty damn unjust to profile individuals just based purely on their physical attributes alone. There’s tons of guys who are all natural bodybuilders who refrain from taking supplements and have freaky size and definition. Does that mean that every man that fits the bill should automatically be profiled and arrested? America may not be killing it where the war on drugs is concerned, but the idea that a person can be put in jail based purely on their looks alone is a pretty damn scary thought to take under consideration (Then again, with the recent Ferguson tragedy that has hit the US – we’re not shining examples either. But we’re not going to touch that one).

    Toney Freeman turned Toney “jailed-man” when he visited Sweden back in 2010. He was targeted by Swedish police no doubt because of his status as a professional bodybuilder and was picked up by police while making a promotional appearance at a local store. If his case wasn’t enough, there’s the case of Joras Tornros. Tornros was said to be enjoying a peaceful dinner when his waitress became alarmed by his massive size, particularly his large forearms.

    Police were called, an undercover officer dispatched and laid in wait at the restroom until he could make his move. When Tornros went to use the bathroom, the undercover cop somehow managed to get a urine sample, return to the station to test its content which showed a slightly above average testosterone content. Based on that the police arrested Tornros! Now not to sound like a bleeding heart, but that’s pretty harsh and pretty damn drastic just to bust someone with a slightly above average testosterone level. Who wants to wake up in a jail cell just because you’re lifting some heavy weight?
    There’s no doubt that Sweden’s police are trying to deal with a sensitive situation in steroids, but what are you sacrificing when you condone this kind of profiling? Much the same as racial profiling, muscle profiling is a ridiculous notion.
    https://generationiron.com/swedish-witch-hunt/


    A recent report comes out of Belgium. Boris, a young dietician in his late 20’s working in the medical insurance field decided to enter his first bodybuilding contest. He placed a respectable 5th out of 9, but as the show drew to a close he was selected by the officials as one of 10 out of 70 competitors to submit to urine testing. He was told to urinate in a cup and fill out paperwork. A month later, he was advised in a letter from the Department of “Culture, Youth, Sports and Media” that he tested positive for steroids and two ancillary drugs, and that his testosterone ratio was elevated.

    In Belgium, steroid doping crimes are pursued both by government anti-doping authorities and by the police. The anti-doping authorities typically tip off the police, who launch their own separate investigation. Shortly after receiving the letter regarding his urine results, Boris received a call from his father. Three policemen had shown up at the door of their home with a warrant and had begun searching his room. The warrant alleged there was cause to search for steroids, other drugs and “narcotics” – all based only on the urine test results. They even seized his computer and external hard drive.

    Boris told me, “I have in my whole life never hurt a living soul, always been helpful towards others, often stupid enough to help others when I should have been more selfish for my own good. I’m a hard working man and all my colleagues and bosses are very happy with my work and would fight not to lose me from their team. … Yet that day, when I had to pee in that cup, all of that changed, and I was all of a sudden a criminal, a very, very bad man in need of some serious punishing….”

    Boris was commanded to appear at an investigational hearing before the anti-doping disciplinary commission. For two and a half hours, he was questioned on every aspect of his life, his training, his diet, and all aspects of his use of sports-related drugs. He was also fingerprinted and his mug shots were taken.

    The following month, he received a letter in the mail. While the criminal investigation was not resolved, the decision of the anti-doping disciplinary commission was a heavy fine of 3,350 euros and … a four-year ban on setting foot in a gym. Yes, not just a ban on bodybuilding competition, but a prohibition against working out at all in any gym! Sounds crazy? Of course it does, given that exercise is universally regarded as a healthful human activity with tremendous physical and psychological benefits. The punishment is idiotic. But there’s one more part of the equation that’s even crazier: the doping authorities claim jurisdiction over each and every gym member in the country, not just the ones that compete! That means that they have the right to raid any gym, accompanied by police agents, and force anyone they choose to pee in a cup. Anyone who fails is treated as a cheating athlete, may be charged by both doping officials and the police, and is forbidden from entering a gym. And the raids have already begun, with the police searching locker rooms, gym bags and vehicles of the members!
    https://www.steroidlaw.com/2013/02/muscle-profiling-hits-belgium/

     
  2. jay runner

    jay runner Banned

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    imo this war on steroids should be done undercover, not by attending bodybuilding competitions.
     
  3. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    You apparently did not really read your own sources, nothing says it's "illegal to be muscular" in Sweden or Belgium.
    face palm
     
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  4. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    I hope everyone reading this thead knows that the steroids are prescription drugs that are banned from use outside of medicine and in competitive sports in general.

    So I do not know what the excitement should be here ...
     
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  5. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That article doesn’t auto-translate very well but there is nothing to suggest the raid was on the basis of anyone being deemed too muscular. There will be loads of gyms in Sweden full of muscular people which haven’t been raided after all so there must have been something else in this case. Like any such raids, I expect it would be based on some kind of intelligence the doping was going on in that specific gym and given they apparently identified a number of suspects on the basis of confessions or urine tests, their information was correct.

    The other articles are just unsupported claims and allegations without any details. Significantly, no details of the conclusions of the two cases in the second article, it’s basically just a couple of people being arrested on suspicious of a criminal act. The third article seems to refer to perfectly legitimate and standard in-competition testing but then some questions about the (alleged) legal procedures which followed. Again, it’s all third-hand though and has zero reference to any actual evidence of the claims (such as the exact wording on the alleged ban from all gyms).

    Maybe it doesn’t sound right because it isn’t right and Swedish police don’t actually have free reign to arrest anyone on the basis of physical appearance alone. Wouldn’t it require a reference to Swedish law or police policy to establish that rather than a couple of third-hand stories?
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In other words "injustice must not have been done because there must have been something else we don't know about".


    It was just a drastic oversimplification.

    Obviously there is the possibility some of these people were arrested and prosecuted for no other reason than they looked "too muscular", or at the very least hassled and had their rights infringed on.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  7. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I never said an injustice must not have been done. I'm saying that the reason you were suggesting is illogical and if you really cared about a possible injustice, you'd want to know the actual reasons. If you just wanted to attack the Swedish authorities and assume there was an injustice, you wouldn't want to think about all the ways that assumption could be wrong.

    At the very best and therefore entirely unnecessary.

    The articles explicitly state that individuals were arrested and/or prosecuted only after confessing to using or failing a urine test for an illegal substance. There is zero evidence presented for any case of anyone being targeted solely because they were deemed "too muscular".
     
  8. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Click-bait article. It is not illegal to be muscular in those countries.
     
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  9. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    what would you expect from a country that doesn't allow it's people to name their own children, the gov does it for them... sweden is an overly liberal, wanna be socialist, totalitarian sh*thole
     
  10. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Sure is ... why do you know that Sweden's debt is almost 40% of their GDP? Compare that to the US with it's 105% debt to GDP ratio and we can see that ... what? ... Oh. Never mind.
     
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  11. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    And your comment that the Swedish government names the children is complete bull crap.
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then you took the title of the article a bit too literally.

    I didn't know of a simpler way to phrase the article that would fit in the title.

    And in some sense the police are effectively making it illegal if they're just arresting very muscular people without adequate additional evidence. Or using very flimsy evidence that could easily be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  13. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Emmmm. That's why it's called "click-bait".
     
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have a point but I didn't mean for it to be.
    The title was descriptive, though an exaggeration of the reality.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'll translate for you.

    The police went in, looked at people who looked unnaturally muscular, went up to them and carried out a conversation and if there was anything suspicious in the way they talked the police singled them out and made them urinate to take samples for analysis.
    Also the article does not state it explicitly but there is implication that many of these suspects homes were searched, just based entirely on how they looked and how they talked to police.



    The initiative was unique in its kind, never before had the police in Norrkoping made such a specifically directed effort against doping.
    In total, 70 police officers were used during the evening, says investigative police leader Mikael Larsson.
    Police were successful, about 43 people were suspected of doping crime. Some of them acknowledged it on the spot, and a number of police searches were carried out on homes.
    At 6pm on Wednesday, the police forces started raids against a handful of gyms. Civilian police went to the gym looking for suspects.

    We have been trained to identify those who can be suspected of doping.
    Now we take a little chat with some of them we pick out. You listen to how they respond, they will either talk straight or talk like they're trying to avoid the subject. From that the conversation, a suspicion can be built up, and then we make them leave urine samples, explained Mikael Larsson.

    Police commander Anders Gennebäck was in charge of the operation.

    "One must constantly ask the question whether that level of muscle growth is reasonable. As a parent or girlfriend or boyfriend you can not be so naive. If you are in your 20s and weigh 90 kilos in muscles then you should wake up and see something is amiss."
    He explained every person involved in doping does not necessarily work out at the gym.
    "There are criminals who take steroids in preparation before crimes to increase their level of aggressiveness."
    Already after half an hour, the intervention leader had received the first reports from the teams that raided the first gym.
    "There is a meeting in all places, already we have a 20 suspects. Many are young, born between 1985 and 1994, it's scary, Gennebäck thinks."
    Helena Fäberg works at World Class and thinks the police's contribution is good.
    "We are involved in an effort against doping and we say in our customer policy agreements that you should not train here if you are using steroids."
    "This is needed"​
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  16. ThirdTerm

    ThirdTerm Well-Known Member

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    Some athletes, weightlifters and bodybuilders take steroids regularly to improve their physical performance and build up their bodies. These bodybuilders are just like East German athletes during the Soviet era. East Germany conducted a decades-long program of coercive administration and distribution of performance-enhancing drugs.



    The recent death of bodybuilder Rich Piana—who collapsed in his home on August 10 and was placed in a medically induced coma shortly after—is raising questions about whether it’s possible to use anabolic steroids in a “healthy” way, as the 46-year-old had previously claimed.

    https://www.health.com/fitness/bodybuilders-steroids-rich-piana
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  17. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What, just like that? 70 police officers were just driving around and decided to stop at a particular gym? Or is it more likely that they had intelligence of widespread criminality, in general and maybe at specific gyms? Doesn't the fact they definitively identified 43 suspects at a single gym, on the basis of confession or urine tests, suggest they were legitimately on to something?

    Clearly one of the factors they'll be looking for in suspects is their build but it clearly isn't (and couldn't be) to sole factor. The article talks about suspects being spoken too and the suspicious being based on what they say and how they act. A very muscular person who behaves normally isn't going to be bothered further while someone of a more natural build who does behave suspiciously would be investigated further.

    The implication is that the homes were searched after confessions. I expect they would require warrants (or the suspects permission) and any illegal procedure could (and would) be challenged in court. I see no reason to presume the Swedish police acted inappropriately on the basis of casual interpretation of a translated news report.

    You're basically trying to spin this in to some terrible miscarriage of justice when in appears to be a perfectly normal form of investigation, one that will be mirrored in all sorts of different contexts around the world. I think you'd need a lot more than what is being reported here to support claims of misconduct.
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't believe that's the case, although the article did not make that the most clear.

    It sounded more like the police were just searching out people who looked too muscular and then coming up with an excuse to force them to urinate and in some of those cases search their house based on how they allegedly talked to police. In other words, the talk was just used as an excuse to gather more "evidence". If the officer had any suspicions based on a "hunch" from how that person was talking, facial expressions, evasiveness. Like the article stated "a suspicion can be built up".
    Keep in mind this article is coming from the side of police. You kind of have to read between the lines a little bit to fully understand what went on.
     
  19. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    Yes, most anabolic steroids (AS) and anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are indeed prescription drugs. But you do understand that the vast majority of AS and AAS are manufactured by what are known as UGLs (underground labs), and, accordingly, that most steroids are obtained without a prescription, right, Mandelus?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I also think there is a big difference between looking extremely muscular, versus looking totally unnaturally muscular.

    If the police single out individuals too much for merely just looking extremely muscular, that is a form of discrimination, in my opinion.
    This seems to be what went on in this case.

    If on the other hand, they only targeted those who looked totally unnaturally muscular, that might be more reasonable.
    I still think these individuals should have some rights not to have their privacy violated. The police could view them under suspicion, but they should still need some level of real evidence before they can invade their privacy with a search or force them to be submit to a test.

    In these countries, however, the level of required evidence seems extremely low.

    And for those of you who may not be aware, these urine tests are not always completely accurate. Before someone is forced to submit to a test, which could potentially result in a false positive, and result in their property and home being searched, or even them facing legal punishment, there should have to be adequate evidence for them to be forced to take that test in the first place.

    In my opinion, it's obvious that the civil liberties and individual rights of these people were violated.
    Unfortunately, that's not so obvious to many other people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  21. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    Yes, it is possible to use anabolic steroids in a way that is no more unhealthy than is, say, social drinking. In fact, since most social drinkers do not maintain clean dietary habits complete with the consumption of large amounts of water, many steroid-using bodybuilders are far more healthy than are most social drinkers. Too, responsible steroid-using bodybuilders, including myself, spend as much time off of steroids ("off cycle") as what they spend on steroids ("on cycle"). Social drinkers, on the other hand, almost never "cycle" their use of alcohol. Moreover, contrary to widespread disinformation, most AS and AAS are not liver toxic. No number of injectable steroids are liver toxic. And only two types of oral steroids (C17-alkylated steroids), "anadrol and "superdrol" are liver toxic. But with responsible use, even "the drols" can be used relatively safely.

    "The controversy surrounding [anabolic] steroids is a lot of smoke and little fire." --Bryant Gumbel

    Finally, a brief word about Piana. Rich didn't die because of his steroid use, even as extreme as what it was. Ultimately, what killed him was his over use of HGH (Human Growth Hormone). HGH causes one's muscles to grow, but so, too, does it cause everything else to grow, including one's heart. As such, one should use no more than 5IUs (International Units) of HGH per day. Piana was in the habit of injecting ten to fifteen IUs of HGH per day. Ergo, his heart grew so much that it eventually came to press against his rig cage, thereby making breathing and other pulmonary functions increasingly difficult to the point to where he, well, died. Officially speaking, the cause of his death is listed as "Unknown." But it is generally recognized that his overuse of HGH was that which led to his early death.
     
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  22. Guy Marsh

    Guy Marsh Newly Registered

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    How do you do, kazenatsu? Thank you for your having liked my post.

    With that said, it concerns me that you wrote "If, on the other hand, they only targeted those who looked totally unnaturally muscular, that might be more reasonable."

    What exactly is it that you think "look[ing] totally unnaturally muscular" is? As a longtime anabolic steroid-using bodybuilder, I often hear the likes of, "Well, you obviously use steroids" as I certainly and unashamedly do. But I know a few very "jacked" bodybuilders who do not use steroids (individuals known as "natties" or "naturals") who often endure hearing the same thing from the uninitiated. Though few in numbers, these are guys who were genetically gifted to begin with and who have sculpted their bodies even further, thereby accentuating their natural gifts. So how do you propose to (a shudder) "target" such individuals accurately?

    More importantly, and given that you "liked" my post and therefore have a feel for the fact that the dangers of AS and AAS are greatly exaggerated, why do you agree with the frightening notion of targeting steroid users in the first place? If at least part of your response includes a belief that anabolic steroids constitute cheating, then ask yourself this question: Why is it that creatine, protein powders, BCAAs, hyperbolic chambers, high altitude training, sideline-consumed oxygen, etc., do not also amount to cheating? Should your answer be something to the effect of, "Because steroids give much more of an advantage than do those other things," then I will tell you that a substantial percentage of steroid users do not even look like bodybuilders, let alone steroid users, whatever it is that "they" look like.

    In the end, anabolic steroids are a tool in a tool bag full of tools; one really no better than any of the others. What separates successful bodybuilders from unsuccessful bodybuilders is hard work, dedication, passion and, most crucial of all, consistency respecting all of those factors. Without it, all is for not, with or without steroids.

    "I was a pretty good ballplayer. And if I had used steroids, I would have been hitting home runs in the major leagues." --Joe Biden.
    No, you ignorant twit, you would not have done any such thing even with the "benefit" of steroids. Certain substances - in fact, very few, can lend a professional athlete an edge, but those drugs did not get them to the pinnacles of their respective sports. They were born to do what they do.
     
  23. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree that there is no exact clear line between "extremely muscular" and "totally unnaturally muscular".
    (I was going to say as much before, but thought it would be unnecessary)

    What you have to understand is the main point of my post was not about government going after steroid users, but rather the rights of other groups of people being compromised due to some misguided enforcement of government trying to go after another group of people breaking the law.

    In this case, it seemed obvious that muscular appearing individuals were being discriminated against and targeted, with an assumption made that they were likely using steroids and breaking the law, and so they were subject to all these invasive searches, tests, and violations of personal privacy, and in some cases even criminal punishment even though they had not broken the law.

    If the police were treating all people in society the way that these very muscular appearing individuals were being singled out, no one would have found that acceptable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
  24. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Sure ... everything what is more or less forbidden, banned or illegal has a black market ... and so here too.
     
  25. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    I think we should allow all these steroids and body enhancing crap and genetic modification on the basis that it gives us something to laugh about. I mean who doesn't dissolve into a paroxysm of laughter when seeing these blokes with uber enhanced muscles smeared in baby oil preening and admiring themselves in front of mirrors....mean shiit... how can you take that seriously?

    I think we should actively lobby for an alternative olympics where its legal to grow doped up genetically modified high or long jumpers with 50ft legs or swimmers with webbed feet and gills or in football, you could breed goal keepers the size of a goal mouth or in Basketball ...well...grow them a big as you like. It would add that element of fun anticipation which is missing from current sports. All the sanctimonious lot could have their little league boring sports free of body altering substances and the real money would go to the crowd pullers - we could have amour plated brain-dead beefcakes slogging it out on TV, swing fists like clubs at opponents with genetically modified skin feet thick and consistency of battleship plating or watching genetically modified sprinters complete the marathon in under 10 second (in slow motion of course).
     

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