I'm Not Giving Up The Watchmaker Argument , , , ,

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JAG*, Sep 1, 2020.

  1. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    There are hundreds, if not thousands of assorted creation stories. Do you believe that a God character made people from trees?
     
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  2. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Please supply your proof that a God exists. I keep asking for proof in all of these threads and none is ever provided.
     
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  3. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Argument ad populum fallacy, i.e. 5 Billion believers, vast majority, etc. believe. Therefore, God is real.
    Argument from ignorance fallacy, can't explain it, therefore God did it.
     
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  4. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Well-Known Member

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    There is only one piece of evidence that the Christian God exists and that is their bible, it is historically unreliable, contradicts itself and is written by mostly unknown authors but for all the huffing and puffing that is their only evidence.
     
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  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hmmm there is a difference between proving "God" exists and "The Christian God" . I would think.

    Evidence for the Christian God is as you say - unreliable and contradictory. My first question to a literalist would be "Which Christian God" ?

    I count at least 4 different Gods - God of Abraham was "El" Creator God - Chief God of the Pantheon - "The Father" "The Most High" and other epithets such as "God of the Mountain" "El Shaddai" - also the name of a Canaanite God .

    This God was well known throughout the near east Chief God of the Sumerian Pantheon (Babylonian/Assyrian) - spreading from there - Chief God of the Empire which had existed in one form or another for over 1000 years prior to Moses showing up - and was still in power throughout the life of Moses.

    This was the God that the people of Moses adopted - as soon as Moses turned his back for a few minutes - "Golden Calf" Bull El - consort Asherah .

    Joshua 23 tells us that this was the God of the ancestors - and asks the people under his reign to turn from this God -and worship the new one ... YHWH.

    YHWH is a xenophobic genocidal maniac .. a flip flopping God with the most petty and nasty of human characteristics .. modeled after the people who created this God - a new cult that supposedly came out of Egypt -

    The Israelites were not "monotheists" but - they were not Polytheists either - they still believed in El - and other Gods ...a "Divine Pantheon" - But - they were only to worship one God .. YHWH -- so while this is not monotheism - it is a trend towards that .. "monolateralism"

    Strict Monotheism does not come until after Persians take over as the new world Empire in roughly 500 BC .. usurping a 3000 yr old Empire.
    With the decline of that empire comes the decline of its Gods ... The Persian's had monotheistic beliefs - Zoroastrianism for example - and so this is how things went.

    Then Jesus shows up - the God of Jesus is nothing like YHWH - and I don't think it was El - it was this greater bigger but more secret God .. an unseen God so to speak. So this is God 3. The God with no name - invented by the Jews under Persia.

    Then - in 325 AD - we get the creation of the 4th God ..as Jesus is finally transformed into God - by Emperor Constantine.


    Now to the question of proof of existence of a God - not necessarily the Christian God - I think there is more than the Bible !?
     
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  6. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Well-Known Member

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    So do I which is why I was very specific about the Christian God and what evidence their god exists!
     
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  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK ... so what do you think this other evidence is ?
     
  8. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Well-Known Member

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    I think the most compelling evidence for a god is the religious experience that many people have, I never have but there is no doubt that many people believe they have had an experience of something other than the purely naturalistic. I understand how someone can believe on faith much better than I understand people who think they can provide evidence for their god.
     
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  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hmmm ... I think that is rather poor evidence for God - in most cases. and believe "Sola Fide" is a foul doctrine in general - but hey, Martin was a foul fellow in many respects.

    I think the evidence comes - not so much from nature but yes - but more from the universe ... and existence in general. "I think therefor I am"

    The most basic thing about existence - is that we can't explain it :) we just are here .. wave .. hello ... "Is there anybody out there"

    but somehow - atoms/matter and energy - which turn out to be interchangeable on a sub atomic level - got into a configuration that woke up one morning .. and realized its own existence. This is a messed up thing - the birth of a thought.

    but - the strangeness is only beginning. OK - fine - this configuration of atoms/energy one day was able to form a thought .. cool.


    but - how do we get from there - to the thought being able to manifest itself into physical reality - and direct the action of matter - from which it came ?

    This is no easy leap - Experiment 1 - look down at your pinky finger .. now wiggle it .. Wonderful - now explain how you willed that to happen ? Who taught you that thought.. Ohhhhh .. this is the thought that makes pinky move.

    So through force of will - this combination of atoms can manipulate itself .. but - unfortunately - you can not manipulation atoms outside your body - through force of will. That skill is reserved for the Gods :)

    bit of a joke there but seriously -- would that not be "God-like" powers ? .. the ability to manipulate - through force of will - not just your own body but things outside your body .. the ability to control energy - better (note the word better - as you already have a small ability at this)

    Leaving aside how this happened to begin with - although an interesting path that is - would rational thought and logical deduction lead us to assume that there are other configurations of matter and energy that have similar abilities to us.

    After all we see all kinds of organisms with lesser abilities... trees for example have a will to some extent - but it operates very slowly - on a very low level. Perhaps there are organisms that surpass us in ability.

    Or - perhaps the universe is one great big organism - and God doesn't have to manipulate energy outside its body - because the universe "IS" its body... or perhaps there are many different levels of Gods out there...

    One thing I think we can say with a little more certainty .. - and you will like this one I think - "Existence is Eternal".

    The configuration of matter and energy that woke up one day and was you - will exist again. My assumption for this proof is that time is infinite.

    That you exist today - means that there was a finite probability of that event happening prior to your existence.
    The question is then - will this combination come together again ? and the answer is a resounding YES .. YES.

    In an infinite amount of time - all finite probabilities not only repeat - they repeat an infinite number of times.

    You are eternal !
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why would you assume that matter is not intelligent ? - Ahhh .. there is the rub ... didn't think of that one did you.

    Would you like an example of an intelligent piece of matter ? ... :banana::banana::banana:
     
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  11. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    a God would be complex, thus needs a watchmaker, Therefore, God is man made.
     
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  12. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    what is the probability that an all-knowing, all powerful God spontaneously arose and then created everything else
     
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  13. 21Bronco

    21Bronco Well-Known Member

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    I much prefer Aquinas' arguments for the existence of God. They're much more deductive and not so analogical. Though clearly, if God exists, the universe was intelligently designed.
     
  14. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    You didn't read the thread.
    I posted in this thread I think 3 times now the following , , ,
    Theistic Evolution might be true?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
    This allows for your "process" and allows for an
    Intelligent Designer.

    Also you are ignoring the many points that I have made
    up-thread as if I had never made those points. The way this
    "little game" works here inside Thread World is to focus only
    on the latest post in the latest thread-page and conveniently
    ignore all the back-pages as if they had never been written.
    You ignored the OP and my follow-up posts and popped
    in and started "holding forth."
    None taken.
    So can you.
    And it is absurd and ridiculous to believe that , , ,

    ~ unthinking non-intelligent Time , , ,
    plus
    ~ unthinking non-intelligent Chance , , ,
    plus
    ~ unthinking non-intelligent Matter , , ,

    , , , produced the Highly Complex Human Brain and the Highly Complex
    Human Eye. If you can believe all that, then you are a Man Of Faith
    as you practice your Religion Of Evolution.

    You are way out of your depth when it comes to producing Empirical
    Evidence that refutes the dozens of points I have made in this thread.
    You can start with all the things the atheist Fred Hoyle said and provide
    solid Empirical Evidence demonstrating clearly that what Fred said
    is not true.

    It is absurd and irrational to believe that unthinking non-intelligent Time
    plus unthinking non-intelligent Chance plus unthinking non-intelligent
    Matter could have assembled a "highly complex Working Rolex Watch" , , ,

    If you can believe that unthinking non-intelligent Time plus unthinking
    non-intelligent Chance plus unthinking non-intelligent Matter could
    have assembled the "highly complex human eye" and the "highly
    complex human brain" , , ,

    , , , then you can just as easily believe that unthinking non-intelligent
    Time plus unthinking non-intelligent Chance plus unthinking
    non-intelligent Matter assembled a "highly complex Working
    Rolex Watch" , , ,

    You are depending on , , ,

    unthinking non-intelligent Time , , ,
    unthinking non-intelligent Chance , , ,
    unthinking non-intelligent Matter , , ,

    , , , to do your creating and assembling . . .

    This is absurd, irrational, and illogical because unthinking non-intelligent
    entities cannot create and assemble highly complex entities like the
    Human Brain, the Human Eye, and a Working Rolex Watch.

    The fine-tuned Human Person and the fine-tuned Earth and the fine tuned
    Universe demands an Intelligent Designer -- and it requires Great Faith to
    believe otherwise. My view is that you are a Man Of Great Faith.


    JAG
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  15. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member

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    In the end it is one faith against another. Atheists are arguing with fallacious line of reasoning without their own awareness. They are educated so. So basically it is a waste of time.

    What science would say? If a theory is not falsifiable, what science can tell is that "not falsifiable" = if it is true science can't tell, if it is false science can't tell either. It literally means science doesn't know if such a theory is true or false. Both ToE and BBT fall into this category. Science already defines them as not knowledge to begin with. So it is not about whether such a theory is a truth or not, it is all about what humans (our scientists) can do under the circumstance that a truth cannot be scientifically identified. To put it another way, it means we can't identify whether it is a truth, all we can do is to try out best to guess what it is with our best knowledge and technology. It is rather a guess assisted by our technology. They, both ToE and BBT, are not falsifiable simply because we can't make it repeatable for it to be falsifiable.

    Now what scientists can do under the circumstance. By speculating other scientific results (by statistical view), it doesn't seem that it is ok for science to accept a God factor into its formula. Thus in the case of ToE and BBT, humans seek for an answer which shall exclude such a God factor. If in the case that in truth that "God created it", it is out of the scope of what scientists are looking for. It means even in the case that "God created it", scientists won't look into that possibility as it is out of the scope of all available scientific approaches. Scientists will only focus on the possibility that in the case that "it is not created by God".

    It is thus apples and oranges to argue with atheists because they don't know nothing.

    As for watchmaker, the argument is about a process where a watch doesn't exist in a particular point of time, but present at a later point. Something didn't exist yesterday but is present today, we thus can pick from two possibilities. It is either created by someone or it is formed naturally by itself. God doesn't fall into this category as the advocated God has the nature that you can't find a point of time He doesn't exist. The possibility of such an existence (i.e., you can't find a point of time that it doesn't exist) boils down to what TIME itself is. Do humans know for sure what time is as a physics unit? They don't, sorry to tell you this.

    Does God need to be proved or evidenced? Again, the advocated God has established a covenant with humans where humans are to be saved by faith. If God can be empirically proved, it only means humans are not savable. So other than being evidenced, by what means humans can approach such a God. The answer is simple (but not to the brainwashed atheists). It is through human testimonies from those encountered Him in history. Atheists are brainwashed through their education (the mark of the beast effect) to fail to realize that humans get facts exclusively from human testimonies in one way or another. Take a historical figure Confucius (not to mention one much less famous than him) or Sun Tzu (the author of Sun Tzu tactics) as an example. Can you evidence the existence of such a historical figure. Sorry to tell you that again, you can't! They exist as a result of human testimonies, do does the advocated God.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
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  16. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    No.
    Addressed but not a successful addressing.
    Rather a Failed attempt at "addressing"

    A very cute little word that "addressed."

    I can say that too. Hey I successfully
    addressed all your incorrect points.

    Hey Christendom's many Christian Apologists
    have successfully addressed your objections
    to an Intelligent Designer.

    I can say Hey you did not address their refutations
    of some of the points in your beloved Religion Of
    Evolution

    Most everybody claims to have "addressed" their
    opponent's arguments --- "addressed" means
    much of nothing here inside Thread World.

    No.
    Wrong.
    Not "put to bed."
    And not "stale" either.
    Intelligent Design is all over the Internet.
    Intelligent Design is believed by the world's
    some 5 billion Theists --- whose numbers
    are growing worldwide --- and projected to hit
    5.7 billion by 2050.
    So?
    So its nonsensical for you to say that Intelligent Design
    and its ramifications have been "put to bed" -- they have
    NOT been put to bed.

    The following has not been "put to bed."

    "a statistical impossibility that life spontaneously arose"___Todd , , ,

    , , without an Intelligent Designer.

    The probability would be a 10 followed by 164 zeros.

    This is where the Religion Of Evolution and the Religion Of Atheism
    can be seen clearly. You really have to be a Man Of Faith to believe
    anything that has a probability based on 10 followed by 164 zeros.

    Maybe Fred Hoyle saw something similar to that up there when he
    said this:

    “Life cannot have had a random beginning ... The trouble is that
    there are about 2000 enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them
    all in a random trial is only one part in 10^40,000, an outrageously
    small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe
    consisted of organic soup.”___Fred Hoyle
    https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/199992.Fred_Hoyle

    ___________

    You will NOT defeat the world's some 5 billion Theists with your
    Religion Of Evolution and its Faith Beliefs.


    JAG
     
  17. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Broncho,
    Thank you for your comment.
    Any additional insights you have would be welcome.

    By the way , , ,
    The Teleological Argument {Intelligent Design} will
    not take you to the God of the Bible.
    The connection between an Intelligent Designer and
    the God Of The Bible must be made by Faith.
    Christianity is a Faith and not an Intellectual Philosophical
    System based upon Empiricism --- though there ARE many
    arguments for Christianity that are based upon High Probability
    and High Plausibility.

    Best

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  18. (original)late

    (original)late Well-Known Member

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    We've danced this dance before.

    ID can never be part of science.
     
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  19. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    Thank you for posting the videos and for making the good points
    you made.
    /Big Grin.
    I hear you.
    However the entire Internet At Large is just like this.
    There is no where on the Internet At Large where one can go to escape
    this same kind of stuff.

    The juice is in the argumentation , , ,


    My view is "the juice is in the controversy."
    That means nobody will hang around threads where there is no controversy
    raging.
    Everybody finds the following to be boring , , ,

    I love Red.
    Yeah, me too, Red is very cool.
    Yep I love Red.
    Goodness, I sure do love Red
    Hey nothing beats Red.
    Yep, Red is the greatest color on Earth.
    Agreed, what would we do without Red.
    Yep.
    Yep.
    Yep.

    , , lol , , ,

    __________

    Playing the B-Card and the G-Card , , ,


    Then if you go to Christian Discussion Boards, your fellow Christians,
    will, in many cases, treat you far worse than the atheists treat you
    if you disagree with them on controversial issues -- they will
    play the B-Card and the G-Card.

    The B-Card is "If you disagree with me then you are disagreeing
    with the Bible."

    The G-Card is, "If you disagree with me, then you are disagreeing
    with God."

    When they play the B-Card and the G-Card, the "debate" is pretty
    much over.

    I mean no Christian can disagree with either the Bible or with God,
    right?

    And after they play the B-Card and the G-Card if you keep on going
    in the "debate" many of your fellow Christians will quickly "put you
    in Hell." and tell you that "You are not a true Christian."

    And that is a Fact -- many will do exactly that. There are many
    "Cannibals" here inside Thread World on the Internet At large.

    They will "eat you alive" too.

    , , , lol , , ,

    Yeah they sure do.
    God is "written on their hearts."
    They will NEVER get The-God-Who-Does-Not-Exist
    off their minds.
    And they will spend the rest of their lives talking about
    The-God-That-Does-Not-Exist.

    ____________

    You just well hang around and chime in with some more of
    your good points. All this is, is just "words on a screen",
    its just "digital ink" --- making points. All we're doing here is
    making points.

    You can have fun making good points.

    Who knows we might actually help somebody.

    Lurkers do read threads you know.

    And every once in awhile an atheist will become a Christian.

    So you never can know for sure if you are helping someone
    or not.

    My view is assume that you ARE helping at least 1 or 2
    people --- and to help just 1 human being is more than
    enough to "keep going."

    Best Regards.

    JAG

    PS
    The points you made were an encouragement to me.
    Thank you.


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
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  20. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    We will continue to dance too.
    It never ends.
    ______

    Well it does end.
    But not the way you think.
    It ends like this:

    "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s
    dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell
    with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be
    with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from
    their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or
    crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed
    away.” ___ Revelation 21:3-4

    No more Death , , not more pain . . . the old order of
    things has passed away.

    And Revelation 3:20 invites you to open the door.
    Maybe you will use your Free Will to open the door
    one day soon, so you will not be "left out" of the
    good things mentioned in Revelation 21:3-4

    "Behold I stand at the door and knock"__The Lord Jesus
    {Revelation 3:20}

    You saying that Intelligent Design can never be a part
    of science does not make it true.
    You'd have to be able to "see into the future" in order
    to actually know what the future holds for Intelligent Design.

    Also you do not own the domain of "science" and you
    do not have the Authority to say what is, or is not, true
    science.

    I had an atheist tell me recently that there was no such
    thing as "settled science."

    Most everybody plays the S-Card. The S-Card is,
    "Hey, I have science on my side, and you do NOT have
    science on your side, so YOU are wrong and I am right."

    Here was what one atheistic scientist said , , ,

    “There is a coherent plan to the universe, though I don't know
    what it's a plan for.”__Fred hoyle

    “The notion that not only the biopolymer but the operating program
    of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial organic
    soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order.”__Fred Hoyle
    https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/199992.Fred_Hoyle

    JAG


    ``
     
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  21. (original)late

    (original)late Well-Known Member

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    You would not only have to have concrete evidence (although the actual entity would be better) anybody would have to be able to follow the same process to establish the existence of a deity or deities. Dramatic claims require dramatic evidence...

    Good luck with that.
     
  22. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Well-Known Member

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    Unless as the sky fairy lovers tried to do at the Dover case you redefine science so that astrology could be counted as a science!
     
  23. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Donor

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    hillman, Jet, and others of the ilk.. what brings you to a thread like this? Would appear to be some kind of sadism to throw rocks at another's beliefs just for the fun of it..

    Prove your own beliefs are correct.. can't do it, can you? You can try but their is a counter-argument to your every contention.
    There is Good and Evil, with no gray area in between. Me and my Fellow Brothers have made a choice for Good and work to attain it, tho' we all fall short in the eyes of the Lord.
    I trust and love my Brothers and Sisters in Christ.. I don't need to know anything more about them that that. I would lay down my life for any of them and they would do the same for me... that's a strong belief, wouldn't you agree? We are all the Body of Christ, we are the Temple, all believers, and Christ lives in us.

    The Bible is the truest book ever written, you may refute the historical accuracy of details of the stories therein, but it would be unwise to ignore the archetypes illustrated.. those archetypes are as old as man
     
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  24. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I pretty much agree with that.
    There might be a few caveats, but I agree in the end
    it is one faith against another faith.
    _______

    By the way, thank you for your comments.
    Atheism and fallacies go hand in hand.
    But not wise.
    Wisdom is one thing.
    Education is another thing.
    You might could help just 1 person "see the light."
    That'd be worth your effort, wouldn't it?
    /Big Grin
    I think Christians and atheists just sorta "trade points"
    and sometimes call doing that argumentation or "debate."
    My opinion is that 98% of both Christians and atheists have
    made up their minds BEFORE they read each other's posts
    that they are going to disagree with what they read.
    Maybe so.
    However I go with the regular notion of what Time is.
    The units of measurement between events.
    Breakfast at 8:00 , , , lunch 4 hours later at 12:00
    Makes life simpler for me.
    An interesting idea.
    I will fully agree that Faith can NOT be eliminated from Christianity
    without wrecking and destroying Christianity.
    "without faith it is impossible to please God"
    "he that comes to God must believe that He exists and that He is a
    rewarder of those that earnestly seek Him."
    "for by grace are you save through faith and this not from
    yourselves -- it is the gift of God"
    Sounds reasonable to me.
    Where there is life, there is hope for change for the better.
    There is such as a thing as "deathbed repentance" also
    known as "11th Hour Repentance."
    There is such a thing as thread-atheists who convert to faith
    in the Lord Jesus -- once in awhile I hear of it.
    Secular colleges and secular universities are not strong
    on teaching the Bible.
    /just saying

    _______

    Hawkins, I was just being "chatty" up there.
    Thank you again for your comments and for
    your contribution to the thread.

    I read your entire post very carefully.
    I appreciate you taking the time to write that.

    Best.

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
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  25. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    I would have never known they were here had you not mentioned it.
    The Ignore Feature is your best friend.
    It really works.
    I am up to 7 and counting.
    The Ignore feature removes all the rocks.
    None of your friends will pay any attention to the "rocks" anyway.
    And it does not matter what your Ideological Enemies say about
    you --- that is predictable and boring too.
    Birds of a feather flock together and they love each other's
    feathers that is each other's posts -- so let them have their
    brief minute of fleeting enjoyment. If you NEVER see their
    "rocks" then their "rocks" do not actually exists as far as you
    are concerned. I love the Ignore Feature.
    Good thoughts up there.

    Best.

    JAG


    ``
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
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