I'm re-reading the Bible

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greenleft, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I did not know there was a second version of Kjv. So sad for the people reading the earlier version... or the people who lived before the kjv.... and only heard what priests told them of their understanding of a Latin version.

    If current versions of the Bible are finally an accurate version of god’s word... I guess we can agree “better late than never”, but I am confused that an almighty god would have allowed bad translations to persist and propagate for so long... all the while apparently condemning those who did not have access to more accurate versions of “his holy word”
     
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  2. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    No, but you are....daily.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  3. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    Hate to break it to you, but the 1611 KJV is still in existence.
     
  4. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of the biblical stories is to teach complete obedience and total loyalty to the boss even if it costs a person his life. It's really that simple and it's the same message regardless of version or translation.

    This is a good site for general information on the various Bible versions = http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/index.html
     
  5. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Here's some stuff I made up today just for you =

    "The Anglican Church’s King James Bible took decades to overcome the more popular Protestant Church’s Geneva Bible. One of the greatest ironies of history, is that many Protestant Christian churches today embrace the King James Bible exclusively as the “only” legitimate English language translation… yet it is not even a Protestant translation! It was printed to compete with the Protestant Geneva Bible, by authorities who throughout most of history were hostile to Protestants… and killed them. While many Protestants are quick to assign the full blame of persecution to the Roman Catholic Church, it should be noted that even after England broke from Roman Catholicism in the 1500’s, the Church of England (The Anglican Church) continued to persecute Protestants throughout the 1600’s."

    "Protestants today are largely unaware of their own history, and unaware of the Geneva Bible (which is textually 95% the same as the King James Version, but 50 years older than the King James Version, and not influenced by the Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament that the King James translators admittedly took into consideration). Nevertheless, the King James Bible turned out to be an excellent and accurate translation, and it became the most printed book in the history of the world, and the only book with one billion copies in print. In fact, for over 250 years...until the appearance of the English Revised Version of 1881-1885...the King James Version reigned without much of a rival. One little-known fact, is that for the past 250 years, all "King James Version" Bibles published anywhere by any publisher are actually Blaney’s 1769 Revised Oxford Edition of the 1611 King James Bible."
    http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/index.html
     
  6. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    I have two 1611 KJVs of various vintages and a 1611 KJV New Testament in gothic print, so it's a bit of a stretch to say that ALL KJV Bibles printed in the last 250 years are the 1769 version. But I am sure you believe everything you find on the internet.
     
  7. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The chances of you having an authentic original KJV that was actually printed in 1611 is the same as getting an ice cream cone on the Sun.
     
  8. Pipette8

    Pipette8 Well-Known Member

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    Read the Bible like there are no religious authorities. It's way more interesting, and way more fruitful.
     
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  9. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    What are your main three takeaways from reading the Bible?
     
  10. Pipette8

    Pipette8 Well-Known Member

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    This is a hard question. One takeaway: The Book of Genesis as it pertains to creation. To believe in creation is to begin to conceive of the glory of God, and the immense love God has for us.
    Another takeaway is the idea that our relationship with God is private and personal. Worshipping in church, synagogue and mosque--all built by the human hand--is unnecessary and we are actually told not to do this. According to many verses in the Bible, our bodies are the temples of God, and the Holy Spirit dwells within us.
    A third take away is to understand that all things are possible with the Lord.
     
  11. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    If only all Bible believing individuals thought this way, I would view Christianity much more positively. Christianity overall however requires a LOT of institutional-ism and authority. There is of course the Roman Catholic Church which needs no other explanation. But I would also point out that the Bible requires the Church as an institution to strictly follow all that the book instructs. If you look at the Law of Moses, that requires a lot of elaborate ritual.

    By the way, what you expressed in your comment is exactly the position of Urantia Book readers. The book offers people something to believe in without having to bow down to the authority of an institution.

    Then there is of course all the things the Church must perform: baptisms and confirmations, weddings, funerals and the bread and wine thing (what do you call it? Sacrament or Communion?). Is baptism necessary for salvation? Most Christians I talk to would say yes although most would not say that it must be into a specific denomination but rather the act in itself.
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's not so wrong, if you look at the earth from a smaller perspective. It goes to show that even during those times they were well aware that the sun stayed visible on the horizon in the far North throughout the summer (the land where the sun does not set).

    The ancient Greeks, on the other hand, believed that since the earth was curved, the Sun was located closer to the equator, thus explaining why the Sahara Desert was so hot. If they went far enough South, it was believed, it would be so hot water would boil and people could not survive.

    Even though some like Eratosthenes, Herodotus of Halicarnassus, and Pytheas of Massalia knew otherwise, most of the other Greek philosophers did not believe them.

    If you're curious, Eratosthenes accurately calculated the circumference of the Earth by measuring the angle of the sun in different locations, assuming the Sun was infinitely distant from the Earth. Herodotus of Halicarnassus claimed to have circumnavigated Africa, while Pytheas of Massalia journeyed far north.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  13. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    IMO the most important things that the biblical stories preach is that people are to obey completly and to be always be loyal to the Boss. All biblical stories contain those ideas. It doesn't matter what the Boss tells you to do. You are simply to obey his commands without question even if it costs you your own life. It's basically a military code of conduct for everyone. Everything else is fluff.
     
  14. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    That's not what I said. YOU said this:

    "One little-known fact, is that for the past 250 years, all "King James Version" Bibles published anywhere by any publisher are actually Blaney’s 1769 Revised Oxford Edition of the 1611 King James Bible."

    ...and I know damn well that's not true because I have more than one 1611 version that were printed within the past 250 years. Stop trying to play expert and don't believe everything you read on the internet.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  15. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    The Christian Church is no longer under obligation to conform to ritual law: no more sacrificing pigeons, goats or grains. Tithing isn't even necessary, although some people still do. Some people get ritual law confused with moral law: not eating pork or shrimp is not the same as not committing murder or adultery, and to think so is absurd on it's face.

    As far as the Church being an "institution": this is the most maddening misconception non believers have. The reality is that the PEOPLE are the Church, not the building, not the Priests and Deacons, it's the people. The ministers are just teachers. But, since most people have rebellious spirits they wonder why they should have to listen to someone who knows more than they do, many people don't know enough to know how little they know, so they reject God, they reject teachers. They reject knowledge. "...the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

    This is why God gave salvation in the person of His son.

    Communion is a sacrament. So is baptism. They are tangible manifestations of God's Grace, they are not merely rituals.
     
  16. Jason Fessenden

    Jason Fessenden Banned

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    Someone has fed you a line of dope. You should have got the RSV over the NRSV., If you want to read the Bible then why read a corrupt translation of it? The NKJV and MEV are the most accurate modern translations. If you lived near me I would give you a leather one for free.
    Now, as for the Geneva Bible. Worst translation of the 16th century! You have no idea how many translation errors in are there and yet not nearly as many errors as found n the NRSV. The best old English translation is the 1537 Matthew-Tyndale Bible. William Tyndale was a master scholar, an inspired genius, who spoke eight languages and brought us the best translation of the /Bible to date. The 1539 Great Bible and 1569 Bishop's Bible are also very good.

    My advice is to get your hands on an RSV which has everything you are looking for but is not a bad translation. You also must realize that liberal scholars are corrupt and deliberately mistranslate the Bible.

    If you want to most accurate modern translation its the NKJV or MEV. For best old English 1537 Matthew's Bible. In fact, the overall best English translation of all time is the Matthew's Bible. The Great Bible, however, is like a sister to it. The 1535 Coverdale is pretty good as well. The KJV is great but not quite as accurate as the Matthew's Bible. Both are fine translations though.

    But there is a reason why we have modern translations. The English of the 16th century contains words and expressions that no longer carry the same meaning today. They did not have a set standard of English back then and no English Dictionary was yet published. Before Tyndale, the language of the church was Latin and the language of academics was French.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  17. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    While I appreciate that you are not a KJV only type of person, I'm never going to let anyone tell me which Bible I must avoid outside perhaps the New World Translation. The 1989 edition of the NRSV is a good balance between readability and literalism on the spectrum like the brand new CSB. But unlike the CSB, the 1989 NRSV has all the additional books of the Apocrypha included not just in the Roman Catholic Church, but in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

    Maybe one day there will be an edition that includes Enoch, Jasher, Jubilees, the 3 books of Meqabyan (not to be confused with Maccabees) and many more included in Oriental Orthodox churches, but until then the 1989 NRSV will do.

    Calling liberal minded scholars corrupt is inserting your political biases in and that turns me off listening to your advice.

    For your first remark, I will point out that to know the law of Moses with all its elaborate rituals is absolutely unnecessary for salvation of believers. Why would you put me through reading the same list of offerings 12 times in Numbers chapter 7 and many other redundant Biblical statistics? If the law of Moses was condensed to a few cliff notes in an edition of the Bible, that would not take away the salvation of a believer to not know Genesis through Deuteronomy in full.

    As for the people being the church and not the building and ordained officers, what I would say is that it's not a problem if people who believe in Jesus as a way for salvation to spontaneously get together and talk about the Bible and pray together. It becomes a problem of it being an "institution" when you make baptism and communion as necessary for salvation as well as making priests or bishops authority figures instead of merely assistants (pastors) in developing ones relationship with Yahweh.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  18. Jason Fessenden

    Jason Fessenden Banned

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    I have several years studying the Bible and translations. If you want to allow yourself to be wickedly deceived then you will be deceived. The NRSV is one of the most corrupt translations ever made. The RSV, and the RSV-2CE, also has the Apocrypha and is a much more accurate translation than the NRSV and it reads so beautifully as its English glides as smooth as butter. There is no need for a NRSV anymore when the Ignatius Bible (RSV-2CE) is a much more accurate translation.

    The NT in the NRSV is probably not too bad. But the OT has been ideologically translated by humanists who bastardized Genesis. So the thing I look for in a translation is first knowing what the translation philosophy is. I've given you very sound advice but you want to learn the hard and ugly way so good luck.
     
  19. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    You're not talking about Tolstoy's novel, then.
    It hardly makes sense to talk about the Bible requiring anything. I mean, if Otis Redding couldn't do what ten people told him to do, how are you gonna do what several dozen people tell you to do?
    And you get that idea from where, exactly?
     
  20. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever read that nice verse in your 1611 KJV = John 11:5? Would you be so kind as to copy it verbatim in your reply?
     
  21. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    You have a problem in that you think you are an authority figure yourself. It always comes down to that, either you want to be God yourself or you want to speak for Him.

    Read the Bible and see what it says about baptism and communion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  22. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Forget that question, I misread your statement.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  23. Jason Fessenden

    Jason Fessenden Banned

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    I think people need to know that while the Geneva Bible is the Bible that founded America and had become the Bible of the Protestant Reformation, it was a later Protestant movement that had been becoming more radicalized than the former. The early Protestant reformation was good and very necessary. Luther and Tyndale led the charge for that but they had a cause and they did not overreach that cause by crossing over into anarchy. The Puritans had good intentions and I'd much rather read the Geneva Bible any day of the week over the radically liberal NRSV, NIV'11 or NAB Bibles. But the Geneva scholars made a serious mistake by removing much of Tyndale's work from the Bible. This could of been reversed and the scholars of the Bishop's Bible tried to reverse that. But by 1568 the Geneva Bible had already become the Bible of the Protestants and the Bishop's Bible never caught on well or was accepted enough by the people even though it was a better translation.
    Not too long ago I was thinking the Geneva Bible was next best thing to the KJV. After studying this issue in great depth and being friends with Ruth Magnusson Davis, the author of The October Testament and The Story Of The Matthew's Bible, I have discovered many things about the the Bible wars of the 16th century I didn't know before. For one, you can see my Signature below which is of Psalm 89:11. Now go grab a lexicon and look up tebel which translates as "world" in your KJV. You will quickly discover that Tyndale was right. Then grab a Bible Commentary like Jamieson, Fausset and Brown or Matthew Henry and look up Ephesians 4:19. The KJV has "past feeling" while the Coverdale Bible, Matthew's Bible, and Great Bible all have "past repentance." You will discover that Tyndale was right. The Geneva scholars removed these things and more which effects all our modern Bibles since then.

    The Apocrypha is not Scripture nor did the Jews have it in their Canon of Scripture. However, their historical value is important. The Book of Wisdom is great reading and anyone looking for a reliable translation of that contains the Apocrypha can discover that the RSV and RSV-2CE (Ignatius Bible) has the best translation of modern times.

    Genesis chapter 1 is brutally bastardized by the liberal scholars of NRSV, NIV'11, and NAB scholars. Their translation philosophy was not a literal cut and dry approach but more of an ideological translation which would insert interpretations into the text rather than keep it real. The best modern translations of Genesis are MEV, ESV, NASB with perfect use of words and grammar, followed by NKJV and RSV with perfect use of modern grammar with any a minor word used imperfectly which is the word "firmament" which is better translated "expanse." Out of the 5 translations I just listed the best are NKJV, MEV, ESV and RSV. I've dug into this subject for years and you can't do better than the NKJV and MEV for best modern translations of the Bible.

    Still the best is the Matthew's Bible. I hope my friend Ruth finishes updating the Matthew's Bible soon. Her goal is to revive the Bible's Bible by modifying the spelling and grammar so it is easier to read in modern English.
     
  24. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    As an atheist, I'm only God myself in the sense that I'm the master of my own destiny for better or worse and that I'll have nobody tell me otherwise. I don't go around claiming I speak for God as I don't have a voice in my head or a man dressed in white with wings standing beside me whispering things into my ear. Nobody on earth can prove they speak for God either so why should I believe them?

    Now, they CLAIM their sacred text as an infallible authority. If I am to accept the text as my authority, it better be perfect which clearly it is not. And just because someone has read the Bible longer than I have, I will not have him/her tell me that they know the magic spell to my salvation. Better they just say maybe.

    Better they just approach me and say (nothing more and nothing less): Here is a book. Please read it. NOT the following: I read this book therefore I know more than you about how to live life. Don't play with your genitals or you will suffer eternal torment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  25. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    You only say those things because you believe in Yahweh. I don't. I don't know if there is a higher power, but said higher power is not the Yahweh described by the Hebrew texts.

    The only reasons I'm reading the Bible right now is because I want to know what's going on it the heads of my devout mother and my ex-wife who both pressured me into going to church in earlier years and because I want to stay occupied until a book I really want arrives later in July if all goes well. I do hope it will broaden my horizons a little after reading the NIV, but that's not my main reason for reading.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
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