Impeachment

Discussion in 'Law & Justice' started by NickDNHR, Sep 25, 2019.

  1. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Forgetting things in his own report is what you would call "smart?" Surely you can't be serious.
     
  2. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    With the new testimonies from the dedicated professional foreign service workers, evidence of Trump's wrongdoings are far stronger than that provided by the Mueller Report. These make the Mueller Report pretty much a moot point. The strong agreement found across the various witnesses interviewed over the past couple of weeks, makes the evidence a powerful statement for the wrongdoing of Trump, Guiliani, & Pompero, who appear to be working together in a concerted effort to basically undermine & destroy the effectiveness of the State Department altogether, & allow Trump the freedom to use foreign policy for his own personal political goals rather than those of the nation as a whole. Trump has never had to answer to another person of higher position or greater power than himself. He's used to having full control & a final say on any topic. He fails to understand that the Constitution intentionally splits power among the three branches equally. Trump's supporters appear to be as clueless regarding our Constitution as Trump himself. They think all is OK, while Trump dismantles our most powerful governmental institutions because they dare disagree with him or his policies. He has also publicly invited both Russia & China to become involved in our domestic elections. Russia accepted the invitation in 2016, & is actively involved with the upcoming 2020 election as well. China has so far been less interested or more adept at keeping it secret. Trump feels he has the same unhampered power as President of the U.S. as he had as sole owner & director of his pre-political businesses. Our Constitution disagrees, but he's fighting that Constitution as if it were a political rival. That makes Trump a very real danger to the Constitution, to our Constitutional government & to our American democracy. Trump must be removed from office, & the sooner the better.
     
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  3. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    While Mueller was in charge of the investigation, he wasn't the only attorney doing it. He had approximately 20 other attorneys working with him, & they wrote much of his final report. I find nothing unusual or disconcerting about his not "remembering" the details of sections of that report that he didn't write himself. I've seen authors of books interviewed on TV & Youtube, who couldn't remember specific facts or details they included in their own recently published books. It's a pretty common theme.
     
  4. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    See my post #1953, above.
     
  5. BigSteve

    BigSteve Banned

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    Well, this carries a bit more weight than some author who doesn't remember something, so the two can hardly compare.

    Mueller out his name to it. If he didn't know what was in it, he shouldn't have signed off on it.

    Period.
     
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  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so you're deflecting away from the Mueller report. It's now clear that you are unable to defend your position any further. It must be clear to you that Barr correctly quoted Mueller.

    Saying that China should investigate Biden is not saying that they should become involved in elections. Biden isn't even the nominee. And why the plural, "elections?" How does Biden relate to future elections?

    He's not going anywhere, not until at least the end of his term.
     
  7. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Do think that it was minor details that he forgot?
     
  8. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    1. I'm not deflecting. I'm stating the obvious, that the Mueller Report has been superseded by the ongoing revelations now being released to the public by Congress.
    2. Asking Russia &/or China to become involved at all, is forbidden by the Constitution, & Trump swore an oath to "Preserve, protect & defend" that Constitution. Clearly, he not only broke that oath, but opened up the door to future foreign interference in our domestic elections by creating that precedent.
    3. You may be right, but if so, it will be history's worst example of our Senate failing to do its Constitutional duty. And, it will allow Trump that much more time to continue the destruction of our governmental institutions he's already deeply involved in.
     
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  9. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    Well stated. Factual, reasonable. Yet so many buy into the spin / Such loyalty to one POTUS as opposed to the nation and constitution..........is puzzling. Do they plan to find away of keeping Trump in until he dies?? That has a cult like feel to it. Do they really want a tyrannical system?? He has already changed the system to favor authoritarian ism. He is breaking rules each day as it comes to the impeachment. A POTUS must be fully cooperative in any impeachment inquiry............and he is doing nothing but obstruct and getting others to obstruct for him. He is not fit for the job... on so many levels.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  10. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but what's happening now has nothing to do with the Mueller report which we were talking about. You said that you, "feel Mueller felt constrained by the DOJ policy" and you have been unable to defend it upon being scrutinised. Again, it must be clear to you that Barr correctly quoted Mueller, when he said that Mueller said that he was NOT saying, that but for the OLC opinion he would've found obstruction.

    Asking them to become involved in what? Elections? If so, then again, saying that China should investigate Biden is not saying that they should become involved in elections. Biden isn't even the nominee.

    What governmental institutions is he destroying exactly?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  11. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Separation of Powers is the root of our Republic, wherever did you get the idea that an election year stunt by a bunch of bitterly partisan Democrats puts the President under the Power of The House?

    If the House is demanding something that WH isn't giving up, they can go to the Courts and litigate their demand. They aren't doing that because they know they will lose in the Courts.

    [​IMG]
    McConnell Says Senate Would Acquit Trump if Impeachment Trial Held Today, ‘No Question – It Would Not Lead to a Removal’

    Treason, Bribery or other High Crimes or Misdemeanors. Democrats are 0-4 on the necessary crime required to be at the bedrock of an impeachment.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    And yet you haven't explained HOW he has done this!
     
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    It's an election year?
     
  14. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Yup. 365 days from today, we will be watching election returns!
     
  15. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What is "election returns?"
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  16. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Coverage of Election Results.
     
  17. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Thought you meant the calendar year.
     
  18. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    I think Republicans are desperately trying to protect Trump in any way possible, & one way is to discredit everyone who opposes him.
     
  19. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    And what about what Mueller forgot? Gee you do love a good deflection!
     
  20. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Nicely said. I am in total agreement. I am growing increasingly concerned with Trump remaining in office for any length of time. The damage he's already done to the Dept of Justice, & to the State Dept, are serious challenges to the Constitution, & a breach of his oath of office. Lindsey Graham's refusal to consider the growing evidence in his rock-hard defense of Trump, while serving as head of the Senate Judiciary Committee, is a sickening example of Republican willingness to trash their personal oaths of office for Trump. How much more damage can Trump & his cronies inflict on America's government before the next election? God help us if Trump wins re-election. There'll be nothing left.
     
  21. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    1. Mueller was a professional government servant, & had served faithfully for many years under both Democratic & Republican Presidents. Like most good government servants, Mueller maintained an apolitical view, with integrity. Mueller stated that he knew from the outset that he would not have the authority to charge Trump with a crime, even if criminal activity was uncovered by his investigation. He also said he never questioned that limitation. His testimony before Congress stayed strictly within the boundaries of that limitation. No one knows how Mueller feels about Trump's guilt or innocence. He never revealed that personal side of himself to anyone. He also stayed within those narrow legal limits imposed on him & his fellow investigators by the Dept of Justice. I & many others, regard his careful listing of Trump's actions that pointed toward obstruction by Trump, as an important addition that Mueller himself regarded as beyond the purview of his mission. He did say in his testimony--indirectly--that that information was intended for Congress, & they could do with it as they wished, but he acknowledged it was Congress & only Congress that was legally capable of using that info against Trump. He never made any personal recommendation for or against further action. Mueller was a model example of a public servant, doing precisely what he was instructed to do, & staying within the legal limits that mission defined, at all times. But many Republicans, & Trump supporters, follow Trump himself in attacking those who try to abide by the Constitution.
    2. Since June 2019, Biden has been a candidate & the front runner for the Democratic nomination to run against Trump. That makes Biden very much a part of the 2020 election, & ANYTHING Trump asks ANY foreign leader to do regarding Biden is AUTOMATICALLY a foreign interference in that election, period. And, any foreign interference request by any candidate or government worker, is ILLEGAL.
    3. The ones that come to mind immediately are the Dept of Justice & the State Dept. Trump & his cronies have seriously undermined both, in different ways. Trump & Barr have shifted the working focus of the Dept of Justice from service to the Constitution, to service to Trump personally. No previous President has done that, & it represents a real danger to the Constitution & to our personal freedoms. The Constitution guarantees our personal freedoms, & until Trump, the Dept of Justice worked to preserve & protect those freedoms. Under Trump & Barr, the Dept of Justice serves Trump & his personal whims, & your rights & my rights become secondary or tertiary concerns. Trump & Sandland & Guiliani, in their pursuit of involving Ukraine in finding dirt on Biden & his family, found our professionals in the foreign service were resistant to their illegal policies. To get around that resistance, Trump, Sondland & Guiliani formed a shadow dept to circumvent the real one, & conduct Trump's personal foreign policy for his own personal benefit, even when it involved illegal acts or ran counter to the best interests of the U.S. as a whole. Trump & Sondland, both swore an oath to "preserve, protect & defend" the Constitution of the U.S. Both broke that oath by undercutting the State Dept & the nation with their secret, illegal maneuvers. No President in U.S. history deserved impeachment more than Trump.
     
  22. XploreR

    XploreR Well-Known Member

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    Please see my post #1971 above for a more detailed response.
     
  23. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They have won in every court so far. They will continue to appeal to the courts until they get every witness they want in front of their Commitee. I can’t wait for Rudy to get in front of the impeachment hearing on live TV. Trump and his refuseniks might drag it out until next September. Then guys like Rudy, Mulvaney and others will either spill the beans or take the 5th like the Mobsters they are.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  24. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. That is the pattern......and it is transparently obvious. It is not doing them any favors.........as they all recited the oath..........and it was NOT to Trump...........it was to the nation........and the nations' people. & the CONSTITUTION The problem is that trump operates the system as iff it were a mob.......... using fear to control his team. He tells them what to say. If any of them don't conform they get trashed on Twitter and in his public words.He is very vengeful.......and has to have HIS way. An immature quality in a narcissistic personality disorder.

    There is also some conversation about the 25 Amendment.......article 4 It might be time to question his mental state........and how it affects his decisions. He is not stable psychologically..........as his behavior has demonstrated.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  25. MiaBleu

    MiaBleu Well-Known Member

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    Trump behaves like an authoritarian leader. He acts like he has no respect for true democracy or the Republic. He is running a one man show..........trying to emulate HIS Heros........(Putin, Kim etc) Look at how he treats the press. He would do away with that freedom in a heartbeat........and install something that favored him and reported only what he wanted . If he could he would follow the authoritarian line in all HIS decisions. His narcissism fosters that kind of belief. & ruling system. Look at all the important agencies he has trashed or removed the US from. The US is not the US anymore.... The rest of the world sees it. Note Frances leader's comment today. The fact remains........the US cannot be relied on anymore. Its leader is too unstable. The international dynamic has been altered and not for the better. As the US removes itself from international leadership..........who will fill the void?? Someone will...........and there are leaders in the wings ...
     
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