In a major blow to vaccine efforts, senior FDA leaders stepping down

So a covid vaccine gets 'approved' by the FDA and immediately two of the FDA's "most senior vaccine leaders" Dr. Marion Gruber (Director of Office of Vaccines Research & Review since 2011) and Dr. Philip Krause(Deputy Director of Office of Vaccines Research & Review since 2010) resign, citing:

"...because they’re frustrated that CDC and their ACIP committee are involved in decisions that they think should be up to the FDA. The former FDAer also said he’s heard they’re upset with CBER director Peter Marks for not insisting that those decisions should be kept inside FDA. What finally did it for them was the White House getting ahead of FDA on booster shots."

So... 'Trust the science?' The scientists are quitting because they're being sidelined by the politicians. Thats what I think is going on here. What do you think is going on?

I don't think the FDA so much certified a covid vaccine... but were really just told to certify it.

Hopefully their resignation letters or statements become available soon. Should be interesting...

In a major blow to vaccine efforts, senior FDA leaders stepping down – Endpoints News (endpts.com)

 

It has always been:

"Trust the science we agree with"

"We don't trust the science we don't agree with"

 

not always. but certainly lately and more and more

 

Politicians shouldn't be giving medical advice and they shouldn't be trying to jump over some of the rules.

It's one thing if it can be substantiated that doing this will save X number of lives and prevent Y number of ICU hospitalizations. It's another if the Biden administration just does not follow the protocols.

Either way, this kind of thing lends to the anti-vax movement. Why should people trust what we're being told when things like this are falling from the sky almost every week?

 

People stopped trusting politicians a long time ago. Politicians think they can regain that trust by dressing up their politics as science, but its just gonna make people stop trusting scientists too.

 

This will always be an issue for people that look to others to think for them. I have never understood why anybody would take medical advice from a politician. Sure, it's easy to say the people that ingested disinfectants weren't too bright but they didn't get to that conclusion alone. Neither did the people involved in the Capitol riot or any other unfortunate events that began with a politician's statements.

We, collectively, say we have a right to freedom but some don't want the personal responsibility that comes with that.

 

The trouble is science is, well, scientific. There are differing opinions on things. Take Climate change. You can get a mass of scientists on one side and a mass of scientists on the other side. Most all science has two competing sides (or more). Not that many things are written in stone, never to be changed or questioned. In fact, challenging and questioning what we know now is what science is all about. To say that you only accept scientific facts is being rather closed minded as they change all the time and there are usually many differing opinions on what we think we know now.

 

It's that but I think your other posts on this are more of the issue. You stated that new information is coming out long before the AMA catches up and reports it. Of course, we don't want them to rush out and change things based on a few anecdotal reports but the time between patients presenting with side-effects and it becoming widespread enough to be reported can be quite long. This leaves a huge gap in which others are unware of the problems and, therefore, making decisions based on whatever the most recent "recommendations" are.

Ounce for ounce, personal experiences WILL always trump scientific recommendations. It doesn't matter how low the percentage for bad side-effects are if one is standing on the wrong side of them.

 

I'm not sure what anecdotal even means. At what point is something anecdotal and at what point does it not become anecdotal anymore? Let's just talk about Covid because Covid is changing rapidly and the moment concrete peer reviewed science comes out, it is based on old information from many months ago. Since Covid is changing almost daily, we aren't going to beat this thing if we are so narrow minded that we will only accept outdated information as scientific fact when, as I said, Covid is changing daily. What was true one month ago is no longer true now, if people just opened their eyes. Which brings us back to anecdotal. When you have hundreds of stories and even un-peer reviewed facts come out literally everywhere you look encompassing thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds or thousands of examples, can you really just call it anecdotal? If we want to beat Covid we have to learn how to add two and two together before waiting for the math teacher to come over and explain it to us four months from now.

 

I got lambasted by Centerfield for posting about my own and my loved ones' own personal bad experiences with allopathic medical care. For some reason, he thinks that statistics of those various complications outweighs personal experience. That's not true at all. Personal experiences always trump statistics. Always.

I am not a doctor but I don't believe there is a way to "beat" COVID. We're not going to reach the numbers we need for herd immunity here in the US and there aren't enough incentives, bribes, threats, warnings, guilt trips, shaming, blaming to sway most anti-vaxxers (and that makes sense, why do they need to do all that to bully people into taking a vaccine?). And, the fact that vaccinated people can and do catch and transmit the virus makes the vaccine seem even less useless than it was before the variants came to the US. I know they are selling it as it reduces the severity of the virus but that doesn't explain why it's killing kids. There are too many unanswered questions and they aren't being answered satisfactorily for many of us despite the allowances for the rapidly "changing science".

 

There is a fair amount of evidence that FDA has been corrupt long before the Plandemic came along. RFK Jr. Has documented it. FDA has long served at the pleasure of the pharmaceutical industry.

 

Delta IS being spread by both the unvaccinated and the vaccinated. That's what the left absolutely refuse to acknowledge. If 100% of Americans were vaccinated, Delta infections would still be increasing. That's why in the most highly vaccinated countries on the planet, such as Israel, infections of Delta are surging. The left have their heads up their asses for not understanding this. You say Covid is not a left or a right thing but BOTH the left and the right make it a left and a right thing. The right make it political and so do the left. Until the left acknowledge the truth we will never get a handle on this. They spend their time blaming Trump supporters, red states, the anti-vax crowd, and everyone else but themselves. They would rather blame the other side for increased Delta cases while they have vaccine passports allowing 55,000 fully vaccinated people into the New Orleans football stadium, seemingly oblivious to the fact that this would be a superspreader event because vaccinated people spread the virus. But if cases surge even more after those 55,000 people leave their fully vaccinated stadium the left will blame it all on that damn red state of Louisiana and those damn unvaccinaated Trump supporters - couldn't possibly be the 55,000 vaccinated people all packed into a football stadium.

 

I don't see ANY disagreement on the science. The issues here seem to be purely POLICY oriented.

You should be careful when making accusations that someone might interpret as pertaining to science when they pertain to policy.

 

You're totally missing the entire issue!!!

Our ICUs are filling up with those who are NOT VACCINATED.

Yes, others can get and carry the disease. But, they aren't requiring our ICUs and they aren't dying.

AND, this is a strong reason for using the other methods of defense against COVID.

And, that means MASKS and restricting close contact situations.

 

The left spread Delta with their lies. The vaccinated spread Delta and the masked spread Delta. But, they refuse to acknowledge this and only blame the unmasked and the unvaccinated when, in reality, the vaccinated spread the virus and the masked spread the virus along with the unvaccinated and the unmasked. Do you think it is a good idea to let in 55,000 fully vaccinated people to a football stadium when we know that the vaccinated spread the virus? Did you know that the kinds of masks that the majority of people out in public wear are only 10% effective? But, if cases rise even further in Louisiana the left won't blame those 55,000 fully vaccinated people who went to the football stadium, they will blame that damn red state of unvaccinated, unmasked Trump supporters.

 

Im accusing the policy makers of not basing their policy on science while telling us it is. That is all.

 

I see zero evidence of this charge against the "left". Maybe you can provide some.

Yes, it is still possible for those vaccinated to spread COVID. That's been in the news for a long time.

Thus even those vaccinated need to wear masks and follow other protocols for limiting the disease. That, too, has been in the news, especially concerning the d variant.

No, I don't believe it is a good idea to open football stadiums to crowds of people. It is KNOWN that proximity like that can spread COVID even among those who are masked AND are wearing reasonable masks. If that's what they did in Louisiana, I'd consider that a serious error in judgement unless some serious evidence from science based medicine that corrects me on that.

Yes, there are mask types that are well known to be ineffective, but that are still used by some. The "gators" and other stretchy masks are pretty much useless, for example. So are bandannas. I've been in a number of places where entry isn't allowed unless one has a better mask than that.

 

Oh please. Even kindergartners are bright enough to see this.

 

Then it should be trivial to cite something supporting your view.

And, I mean something from legitimate science based medicine - not the hucksters of political garbage or homeopathy.

 

LOL. You guys deny all science that doesn't fit into you pre-conceived agenda.

 

I'm totally open to you pointing to a case of that.

 

LOL. So you are saying that there are no scientists who say that Climate Change is not mostly man made? You are saying that there are no scientists who question the vaccine?

 

No, there are scientists who question pretty much everything. Scientists are pretty darn skeptical.

So, it's a little tougher than simply searching for someone with a phd who agrees with you.

One has to consider whether the sources has passed review of other experts, whether the institutions involved are to be respected, whether there is agreement that the methodology used is sound, etc.

Also, individual scientists almost never have the resources and equipment that larger institutions the world over have at their disposal. As a result they can afford having teams of scientists that work together to create superior quality work.

 

These people are quitting because Biden was trying to push his policy on them through the CDC. Instead of following the science, Biden wants the science to follow him.

 

Excuse me, there is no science at play here.

Medicine is not Science. It never was, and never will be. The fact that Medicine uses scientific methodology does not make it Science.

When you all come to understand the difference between Medicine and Science, your lives will be much better.