instead of long prison sentences, send criminals off to an island

Discussion in 'Law & Justice' started by kazenatsu, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've notice that the same criminals keep committing the same crimes over and over again. (Apparently some can't seem to help themselves)
    Instead of keeping them in prison for the majority of their lives, what about for lower level crimes send them off to an island, or build a colony out in the middle of nowhere? There they could live among their own kind. I imagine the crime rate would be pretty high, but at least they wouldn't have to be kept behind bars just to keep them away from normal people.

    In ancient times they used to have a place of refuge, a special area designated for individuals to keep them away from the rest of society where they would live in exile.

    I don't know, I just find keeping them locked up because they're not compatible with law-abiding society kind of cruel.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
  2. jmblt2000

    jmblt2000 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the Romans had the coliseum, put cameras everywhere and let them kill each other....like that's humane. Criminals locked up have it better than the homeless in this country, they have a roof over their heads, three meals a day, weight rooms and an exercise yard, and a place to sleep that is climate controlled.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Another reason to send prisoners off to an island somewhere:


    Dying Inside: Elderly in Prison - Fault Lines, Al Jazeera America, June 27, 2015



     
  4. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You really want another Australia?

    I kid.

    I would support 'felon island' as a voluntary alternative to incerceration. I would prolly choose the island over a cell.
     
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  5. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    By way of information the main reason Australia was selected as the site for a new British penal colony was the fact that the American Colonies had decided (for some inexplicable reason) to revolt. And this revolt was based partly on the fact that Britain had previously been in the habit of 'exporting' convicts (or indentured labor to use the politically correct term) to America prior to the revolution. So once it succeeded the British were more or less forced to locate another site where they could expel their surplus riffraff.

    Yeah us.
     
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  6. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Why not just crucify them? It seems a much cheaper solution.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am trying to describe a more humane solution than just keeping them locked up in prison.
    Many of these prisoners do not really need to be locked up in prison for long periods of time, if there was an alternate solution to remove them from ordinary society.
    Prison has two functions: to punish people and to remove them from society so that the organization of society gets a temporary reprieve from their crimes. Well, what happens when we want to focus more on the second reason but not the first, with some prisoners? The point is there should be some alternative options.

    To emphasize again, I am proposing this as a solution to be able to have fewer people who have to be in prison.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2020
  8. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    You think prison is humane? Taking away a person's liberty is humane?
     
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  9. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I do have to thank you, for these occasional laughs that only your threads provide. Stick 'em on an island somewhere, & forget about 'em. What if they haven't forgotten about boats, & build one (or hundreds)?

    To keep them on this island, we would need a permanent naval blockade. But I'm sure you have a solution. I can hardly wait to read it.
     
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  10. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    1. Cane and release almost all our first and second offenders and sell 90% of our prisons and jails.

    2. Use the proceeds and the budget savings to fund generous vested healthcare accounts for the productive working class.

    Problem solved.
     
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  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    So where exactly are you proposing to send them? Canada? It may have escaped your notice but all the available restate has been claimed. There is no 'middle of no-where' anymore.
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They could still be kept sex-segregated to prevent a population of children from being born in this place. There could also be another mixed gender location, where only older post-menopausal women or people who had vasectomies or tubal ligation could go, but presumably that place would only be for prisoners with very long sentences.

    There is still plenty of remote land where exile cities could be built.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  13. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    There are aprox 2.3 million people in prison, in the US on an annualized basis. Something like 80% of who will re-offend within 5-6 years or so (mostly for drug addiction related drug offenses BTW). And you want to build at least (gender) separate cities to house at least 80 percent of that population? And then watch the population grow as first timers return to jail on their second/third offense?

    Cities with all the basic mod cons, running water, electric power, paved roads, medical services basic level housing. The list goes on.

    And who is supposed to pay for all this, bearing in mind you still have to run an albeit smaller jail system for the first timers?

    Again where exactly?
     
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some options might be Montana, the eastern part of Washington state, northern Texas, Alberta, still plenty of land in Western Australia, there is also of course Siberia (mainly the southern parts) and the Kamchatka peninsula.

    I am not talking about a whole country sized area, just a small county sized area.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  15. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    OK then. Still doesn't answer the question who'll pay for it though. Plus I believe there's a little thing called the US Constitution which (I believe) might impede your little... (I hate to use the term 'idea').

    All territory belong to sovereign nations who have zero interest in or incentive to taking on the entire US prison population! And convincing them ($$$) to do so would cost 10 times as much and still be 10 times less likely to succeed than would trying to convince your own States.
     
  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It could easily be cheaper than what it costs currently to house these people in prison.

    Do you care explain why you believe this idea might be incompatible with the Constitution?
     
  17. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This made no sense in 2017 and makes no sense today. You've done nothing to establish that your proposal would be cheaper than prison because you've not addressed any of the key details. How would these "prison cities" be established and run. Are we provided services and infrastructure like power, water, food, wasted disposal etc. (which would be expensive) or are we just dumping them in the wilderness (which would hardly meet your humane criteria). How would you keep the prisoners in and other people out?

    I don't think you're appreciating the numbers you're talking about here since you seem to be suggesting that all low-level offenders are sent to these places for the rest of their lives. That would quickly build up to millions of people, the vast majority of whom won't be currently in prison at all.

    There is also the bigger question of what you're actually looking to achieve, which appears to be limited to saving money and pushing the (perceived) problem people away, with a emotional hand-wave towards being humane. You seem to be ignoring one of they key purposes of the criminal justice system of rehabilitation.
     
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  18. joesnagg

    joesnagg Banned

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    Didn't they already make this movie " Escape From New York"......
     
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  19. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    The US has had the highest per capita rate of imprisonment in the world for about half a century now. So much for the land of the free and home of the brave. Asinine public policy like drug prohibition and minimum mandatory sentences are responsible for those high numbers.

    Now you want to increase the numbers by way of your fantasy?
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you honestly believe the current system of prison really does anything in particular to "rehabilitate" people?
    Besides, whatever is "rehabilitation programs" (if they even do indeed exist) are offered in prisons could also be offered in these "islands of exile".

    Do some research to see how much it typically costs to keep a person in prison. Holding them inside a secure facility, with thick strong walls and round-the-clock guards, is very expensive.

    There could be a fence around the perimeter, but the level of security to keep the "prisoners" in could be a lot lower if their level of freedom inside was much higher.

    They would basically be getting to live in their own city, and it would be a small microcosm of the rest of society outside.

    I mean, imagine I tell you that you are being punished and you have to go live in some certain particular city for 10 years as part of your punishment. Your incentive to escape will be a lot lower than if you were being held inside a prison.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  21. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The only people who would be sent to these "places of exile" would be people who would otherwise have been in prison.

    So there is no reason that this proposal would necessarily increase the overall incarceration rate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  22. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Prove it then. Crunch the numbers for the cost of building a entire city from scratch to house the current US prison population and then 'ring fence' that city with a security perimeter strong enough to keep that many people contained.

    I believe it something called the 10th Amendment which limits the powers of the Federal Government in terms of State prerogatives. Not only would the Federal Government have to be willing to fund it, all 50 States would have to be prepared to sign up to a deal effectively requiring them to 'export' their criminal population (& citizens) to another jurisdiction. Then one 'brave' State Government would have to volunteer to take them all AND get that measure approved by its own voters. Make that one former State Government.

    And that's in a country where getting all 50 States to agree on set of consistent/coherent anti-COVID policies on a temporary basis proved more or less impossible.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
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  23. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, certainly not in the US. It could though and if done properly, would save money in the long run. The main blocker is short-term thinking.

    Do some research and see how much is costs to build and run an entire city, especially without a full selection of skilled, qualified or motivated workers.

    Not without a whole load of resources sent in and extensive management and governance. Otherwise, it'd just be anarchy. I still don't see how you expect this system to actually work in practice.
     
  24. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The standard of living inside this place of exile would probably be similar to a Third World country.
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Don't you think the current system could be modified to become more like this idea?

    Maybe just a prison that is much less restrictive, and almost like a city?

    Maybe not like a city in the developed world, but like a city in some Third World country.

    Maybe companies could sign contracts with the government to locate their factories inside these cities to make use of the cheaper labor.

    I definitely don't want to turn these into sweatshop slave labor conditions, but they could let them be paid a little less than minimum wage.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020

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