Interior Secretary Reverses Obama’s Lead Ammo Ban

Two elk never took another step, one went 50 yards and died.

 

There probably is a correlation between the quantity of firearms in the public hands (over 300 million the last time I read a number) and the homicide rate with firearms but so many other factors affect the homicide rate that it all becomes rather meaningless after awhile.

Back to the thread - There's really no reason to need lead based ammo from what I've read. The tin based substitute apparently works well enough for hunting and other general use purposes. Why we want to contaminate the wilderness with a heavy metal that's highly toxic to all forms of live I'm aware of makes no sense to me.

 

One, we're shooting wildlife to death with those bullets. I've been unable to find those studies where tin based bullets have similar terminal ballistics as lead based bullets. Can you link them?

 

[QUOTE="Shiva
Back to the thread - There's really no reason to need lead based ammo from what I've read. The tin based substitute apparently works well enough for hunting and other general use purposes. Why we want to contaminate the wilderness with a heavy metal that's highly toxic to all forms of live I'm aware of makes no sense to me.[/QUOTE]
An what you have read is gospel? Why not rocks or silly putty? Why has lead been used for hundreds of years and what has been the measured impact? I am still waiting to hear use of lead in bulletscis the root cause of global warming. Then, notblead how do we combat the aliens we are fighting in the AntArctic?

 

Funny -- it's almost as if you didn't read the posts that illustrate the abject falseness of this claim.

 

If we're required to use tin bullets, we will need "high capacity" magazines to ensure a quick kill.

 

I missed them. What post #s?

 

Animals are only so dumb. You give a dog a lead bullet, they won't eat it, but break it up into a small fragment and put it in their food, and even a dog would eat it.

Which is the problem with lead - it is soft and fragments easily into smaller bits.

 

Those who want to punish gun owners for political reasons come up with the most inane suggestions based on facades such as "preserving wildlife" in order to hide their true goals

 

I am unaware of this happening at a level that would justify the Obama style bans. Now shooting lead shot into wetlands-yes that causes problems because of the feeding habits of ducks and geese . Bullets from hunting rifles that end up in trees or turf when a hunter misses-not so much

 

That's how wound channels are created. Do you hunt?

 

other than shot and 22's most hunting is done with Copper jacketed bullets. I don't know if many bullets fragment but rather expand. I have a paperweight somewhere that I made that had the 458 Soft Point my father used to take a cape Buffalo on Africa almost 50 years ago and I believe all most all the bullet remained intact inside the beast

 

I can believe that. Bullets for dangerous game are designed for penetration and retain their mass. Bullets for animals like deer or elk sometimes are designed to fragment, losing up to 30%-40% of their mass to create a larger wound channel.

 

I know a lot about defensive bullet designs and I am trying to figure out why a bullet that comes apart would create a more effective wound channel. Most of the top defensive designs brag about retention of mass in the target

 

Correct...typically a fragmenting bullet creates additional wound channels, not a larger wounds channel. Lead bullets also typically do not fragment, unless designed to do that.
they usually deform and expand unless hitting bone in which case bone fragments may cause additional wound channels. Jacketed bullets may deform and shed their jackets. Controlled, predictable expansion is generally the goal of manufacturers with one object of preventing over penetration, so a bullet imparts maximum energy. The exception is for dangerous game such as hog, bear or larger game where penetration to the brain or heart is desired for as quick a kill as possible. I had a friend shoot a charging hog twice with a HP .44 mag round later found to flatten against the shoulder plate. I put it down not 15' away with a Marlin 45-70 with a hardcast bullet. One bullet design does not do it all.

 

Again, we're talking about fragments here. If a bullet stays solid, whether it remains in the game or shoots clean theough, is not a problem. It's when it fragments that it becomes a problem, because a fragment - in a piece of meat - can become an issue. It can be an issue when a fragment and a bit of flesh separate. It's mainly an issue when a hunter hits his mark (loosely speaking), but the game gets away, mortally wounded. With bits of the bullet fragmented into the flesh, scavengers won't pick the fragment out - they'll eat it with the flesh.

Again, it's a common enough issue that I think it clearly warrants a ban on lead ammo - but not to require lead free ammo. If it's coated (or "jacketed" - I know that's the word used for FMJ, but I see no point in insisting on jargon) with another material it is substantially less of an issue.

 

Haven't for a while - use to, and I have family that hunts.

At any rate, it is federal land meant for conservation. I hardly think it's onerous to ask hunters to not use lead unless it's coated.

 

And you believe that other metals that may be used for ammunition will not perform in a similar manner? Is there any actual evidence to suggest that these lead alternatives will not fragment in a manner that will cause internal bleeding if the fragments are consumed? You are aware that if the fragments are left behind in the guts of the animal that are discarded, a solid bullet can be ingested by scavengers just as readily as a fragment, correct?

 

Outstanding. Make America great again? Hell, let's just take it back and make it what it was/is intended to be prior to The ObamaNation Transformation!

 

the only lead I know used to hunt is 22 rifle rounds and bird shot. (buck shot is actually not legal to hunt "bucks" with in most states)

 

Any bullet design where the lead is completely jacketed or coated so that there is no chance of fragmentation are not nearly as effective on game as current hunting rounds. They are considered unethical if not illegal because the greatly increase the chance of just wounding the prey instead of a quick kill.

 

You make a good point. It's also not only the animals that are eating lead, so is the hunter.

Here's ground venison with lead in it.

http://huntingwithnonlead.org/lead_in_meat.html

 

Post 54.
Tin is 35% less dense then lead.
A person can only describe the effect of switching from lead to tin bullets on exterior and terminal ballistics as "negligible" if they have no clue as to what they're talking about.

 

And, again, you admit the extent of the issue cannot be quantified, meaning your claim here has no merit.

 

Lead ammunition has been utilized for the purpose of hunting in the united states since before the country was even founded. Long before it was known that lead was a toxic substance. Long before copper jacket coating was ever even thought of. So why has this not caused a serious problem for the entire population from the very beginning?