Iran's Grim Economy Limits Its Willingness to Confront the US -- NYT

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by jay runner, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    25,747
    Likes Received:
    9,526
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "Who" said that Soleimani was "not allowed" to be in Iraq.

    It must not have been the US, for it has no jurisdiction in Iraq, since it is a sovereign nation.

    The Iranians are for Iran, not the US view of Iran, sobo, so you better forget that nonsense.
     
  2. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2018
    Messages:
    5,754
    Likes Received:
    3,162
    Trophy Points:
    113
    False.

    "The Persians are an Iranian ethnic group that make up over half the population of Iran.[1][2] They share a common cultural system and are native speakers of the Persian language,[3][4][5] as well as languages closely related to Persian.[6]

    The ancient Persians were originally an ancient Iranian people who migrated to the region of Persis, corresponding to the modern province of Fars in southwestern Iran, by the ninth century BC.[7][8] Together with their compatriot allies, they established and ruled some of the world's most powerful empires,[9][8] well-recognized for their massive cultural, political, and social influence covering much of the territory and population of the ancient world.[10][11][12] Throughout history, Persians have contributed greatly to art and science.[13][14][15] Persian literature is one of the world's most prominent literary traditions.[16]"
     
    Eadora and JakeStarkey like this.
  3. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    14,150
    Likes Received:
    724
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How do they call their own language ?
     
  4. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,309
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Farsi.
     
  5. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    107,541
    Likes Received:
    34,488
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You will have to wait for a democrat for that.
     
  6. free man

    free man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,984
    Likes Received:
    551
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Right and what does it tell you about them ?
     
  7. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    25,747
    Likes Received:
    9,526
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That the speak Farsi.
     
  8. free man

    free man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,984
    Likes Received:
    551
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So Farsi is not a Greek name. QED.
     
  9. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    14,150
    Likes Received:
    724
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sounds very close to Persia if you ask me....
     
  10. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,309
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Ahhh how i hate it to teach something.

    The people call themself Iranian. The nation was called Šâhanšâhiye Irân by its founder Cyrus the Great. Which means Imperial Iran.

    Its capital was "Pārsa". The language spoken there was called Parsi or today Farsi.

    The Greeks named the city "Persepolis" Which means city of Parsa. Since the greeks did not know that much about other nations, they named the entire Empire "Persia" which comes from Parsa.

    Its like callig americans "Washingtonians" or Germans "Berliners" or Spanish "Madridians".

    Iranians always viewed it as insult to be called "Persians" since it was a deragotary slur towards them.

    The word Persia was mostly used in Europe and the West and the late 1930th Shah Reza made Iran the official name of the nation worldwide, banning the word Persia to be used in any state documents.


    @free man you see, Iran has quite interesting and amazing history.

    The stuff i mentioned above btw is simple german school knowledge.
     
  11. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    25,747
    Likes Received:
    9,526
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The fallacy of false equivalency above hurts the head.

    I have known a number of Persians, who never considered the term a slur.

    Persia is certainly a proper name historically for what is now Iran.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  12. Boosewell

    Boosewell Active Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2019
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    They didn't. It was a stalemate.
     
  13. Boosewell

    Boosewell Active Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2019
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    (a) hanks

    (b) Bit of a shame really. Most everybody has read the story of the Fair Persian from the Arabian Nights. The Pretty Iranian doesn't cut it really.
     
  14. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Farsi means "Persian". In fact, another word for Farsi is Parsi. Since the Arabs don't have the letter "P" in their alphabet, after the Arab invasion of Iran, Parsi gradually became pronounced and then written as "Farsi". The same with what is now an Iranian province, called "Fars", which used to be part of the region in Iran called "Pars".

    You are right in this sense: the country which was called in the West "Persia" (taking after the Greeks who called it Persis, derived from "Pars" in Persian) was throughout history referred to by Iranians as IRAN. The distinction is important in that Persia signifies a part of IRAN, and not its whole. IRAN means "Land of Aryans" and indicated the geographic abode of the Iranian people, becoming the official name of the country ever since the 3rd century under the Sassanian empire.

    In this regard, the first "Persian empire" under the Achaemanid dynasty was actually a confederacy of the two principal Iranian tribes of the time, namely the Persians and the Medes. While the Achaemenids were of Persian descent, they stressed both their Persian and Iranian identity, with Darius for instance saying: "He was a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan (Iranian) of Aryan (Iranian) descent". The Parthians, who were not Persian, nonetheless claimed their legitimacy ruling Iran from the 3rd century BC to the 3rd century AD by virtue of their Iranian lineage. The Romans, however, typically called them "Persians" and their realm Persia, following the Greek convention. While their successors, the Sassanids, were in fact Persian, they were the ones who made IRAN the official name of the country, even if the Romans (and Byzantine empire) continued to call IRAN by the old Greek name, Persia. The same was true during the Safavid empire and all their successors including the Qajar dynasty in Iran up to the 20th century: they called their realm IRAN, and took the title "Shahanshah of IRAN" (King of Kings of IRAN), even if European powers continued calling IRAN Persia. Eventually, under Reza Shah in the 1930s, Iran requested that European countries refer to IRAN by its historic and official name, as opposed to calling it Persia.
     
    MrFirst and JakeStarkey like this.
  15. free man

    free man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,984
    Likes Received:
    551
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Unlike you, I was not privilaged to go to the great parroting german schools.
    However I know tens of Iranians.
    None of them say he belongs to the Iranian people. All of them say they belong to the Farsi people (some of them pronounce it Parsi).
    As for your future as a history teacher, I'd say: don't quit your day job.
     
    JakeStarkey likes this.
  16. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,309
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I too know iranians, all of them see the word persia as insult. You obviously know nothing at all.
     
  17. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2016
    Messages:
    25,747
    Likes Received:
    9,526
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Respect. Not one Iranian I know sees the word "Persian" as an insult.

    Stand down, Sobo.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  18. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,280
    Likes Received:
    18,041
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If the Greeks called it Persia than it was called Persia by the Greeks.
     
  19. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Iranian emigres, who prefer to distance themselves from the negative image of Iran, and Jewish Iranians in particular, might refer to themselves as "Persians". But outside some emigres I alluded to, if you ask any Iranians about his nationality, he/she will say: "Irani has-tam" (I am Iranian). This is how it has been for centuries and millennia of Iranian history. The Iranian epic, Ferdowsi's Shahnameh (Book of Kings), is explicitly devoted to keeping the memory of "IRAN" alive and mentions the name Iran no less than 800 times! And all Iranians (except for a small minority among Iranian emigres and, in particular, among Jewish Iranians emigres), have used that designation to refer to themselves. Indeed, for large groups of non-Persian groups within the ethnic mosaic of IRAN, the designation "Persian" is as alienating as calling an Irishmen or Scot "English" would for the Brits.

    In this regard, let me expand a little more on why a small minority (especially Jewish Iranian emigres) prefer the use of the designation Persian, going beyond the obvious negative political connotations regarding the term Iran due to contemporary politics which they are seeking to avoid. In this regard, there is also another aspect of the term IRAN which some Iranian Jews might find alienating.

    For Jews in general, the corruption of the term "Aryan" (which is a synonym for Iranian) by the Nazis, made that term not one they were comfortable with. Now, Sobo will not like what I have to say on this subject, nor would some Iranians who are somehow influenced by such ideologies, but the truth is that the term "Aryan" (Iranian) was never about what Comte de Gobineau and his ilk made it out to be. In fact, while the "Aryans" did speak a language related to other, so-called "Indo-European" languages, including German, the real Aryans (Iranians) were from the beginning a mixed race of people and they were most certainly NOT what you may call "Nordic". Instead, they looked very much like what many Iranians look like today. The original Aryans (Proto-Indo Europeans who spread their language to various places including in Europe) were themselves already a mixed race of what you may call "Nordics" and people who would be of "Asian" background. In fact, modern archaeology and genetics, shows what I would have known from Iranian mythology and epic history already. If you look at the physical description of speakers of the "Proto-Indo European" languages, you will see that clearly.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture
    http://archhades.blogspot.com/2015/10/myth-of-light-pigmented-nordic-looking.html

    What is significant in this is the following: while Gobineau linked all human civilizations to the "Aryans" (and while he went overboard, on this point his work had more solid foundation than on many other points he made), his notion that civilizations declined because of mixture of races was simply absurd and false. Equally absurd was his idea that the "Nordics" were the ones who brought civilization to different areas of the world. The truth is that the real "Nordics" weren't particularly civilized by themselves and we have no purely "Nordic" civilization in ancient history. It was when they got mixed with others, in the case of the people who began the "Aryan civilizations, with Asians (Chinese) that not only the Indo-European languages got started, but the civilizations which the Aryans developed or contributed to began to take shape And this understandable too: natural selection in evolution isn't about isolating genes, but having a diverse enough gene pool for natural selection to do its wonders. The "Nordic" element behind civilizations is more pronounced in post-17th century European history, but certainly the Greeks and even the Romans, never made a "racial" (as opposed to cultural) distinction between themselves and the Persians. But both the Greeks and Romans, like the Persians, did have a view of another "Iranian" group, the Scythians (who are the likely ancestors of the Slavic people), which emphasized their different appearance. (The Scythian people, while speaking an Iranian language, were rather distinguishable back in ancient times for their more Nordic features). Meaning the "Nordic" element within not just the early, mostly Semitic, civilizations in the Middle East or the mostly Chinese civilizations in the far east, wasn't really all that present, but it wasn't even so pronounced within the early European civilization in ancient Greece.

    You can read the volumes written by the Greeks about the Persians, and all their habits, and all the negative propaganda they used against them, but one thing you won't find at all is a single attempt to make a 'racial' distinction, even if they did make that distinction between themselves and the Scythian people (Nordic like), the African people and many other people they were in contact with. The reason for that is simple: the ancient Greeks were no more clearly distinguishable from the ancient Persians as modern day Greeks are from most/many modern day Iranians. Between them, they are more distinguishable often from Scandinavians on the one hand, the Africans on the other hand, and the Chinese on another hand.

    So, while Iranian Jews, affected by Nazi ideology, might want to occasionally distance themselves from the "land of the Aryans" and prefer the "Persian" label found in the Torah and related Jewish tests (which nonetheless often talk about the Persians alongside the Medes, the two together forming the backbone of the Iranian peoples in the western regions of Iran in contact with them), they are simply influenced in that by the mythology and propaganda about "race" in the West. A propaganda that is so prevalent that even though the Nazis were ostensibly defeated for their ideology, and even if liberal humanistic ideology which mainstream or liberal Jews (not ultra Zionist Nazi Jews) played a major role in expanding in the West, touches treatment of what people in the West are exposed to on a daily basis.

    But there are still a small group of people, in Iran and elsewhere, that like the mythology of Gobineau (who served as France's ambassador to Iran and did see Iran as his inspiration and the place he loved the most, even if he totally misunderstood it). That mythology helped modern day Iranians be exempted from Hitler's Nuremberg laws as "Aryans" and it also created a strange link between certain far right groups in the West and those influenced by them in Iran. In reaction to them, you have ultra Zionist, Nazi type, Jews" who have been busy promoting a totally different mythology and others who have gone overboard and totally corrupted history and historical terminology to distance themselves from the ideology of Gobineau. In all of this back and forth, behind the scenes, any real account of the true history of IRAN has suffered as it had suffered by virtue of all the foreign enemies which in different ways have tried to subdue this great land. But real IRAN is sui generis: it will live on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
    MrFirst likes this.
  20. Thehumankind

    Thehumankind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,478
    Likes Received:
    342
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Iraq is a very good reminder, if they are able economically to wage war against the US we will just replace "Q" with "N" and that's it, and they will become another hotbed for ISIS and the likes.
     
  21. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,309
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Dont know what you try to say but ok.

    Genetic studies show that the germanic phenotype emerged roughly 10500 years ago and that there was little to no intermixing later on, which can be seen on the genetic make up in today Germany.

    We have little to no genetic connection to the iranians.
     
  22. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,309
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Iran is a 80 million people nation amd actually possess WMD, something Iraq had not.
     
  23. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is not inconsistent with what I said, but you have to realize that the 'starting point' for every genetic comparison determines the outcome when it comes to "intermixing". Otherwise, all human beings and races are ultimately the product of intermixing and an evolutionary process which, depending on where you begin, saw various races emerge from the human species and before that from earlier forms of homo sapiens and before that various other species in the animal kingdom.
     
  24. Sobo

    Sobo Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    10,309
    Likes Received:
    1,946
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Well im glad im germanic and not iranian. I actually like my blue eyes and to be tall.
     
  25. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,504
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am glad you are glad:)

    Height is a function of several factors, including nutrition, but while northern Europeans are definitely taller than Iranians, in general, Iranians are generally distinguishable from those who belong to the Mediterranean division of the Caucasian people by being taller and of sturdier built. The physical strength associated with the Iranian race reflects itself perhaps in the fact that Iranians generally excel in sports which call on such attributes, including in Olympic sports such as weight lifting, wrestling etc.

    Genetically, the majority of the population of Iran (including Persians, Azeris, and Kurds) fall within the larger "Central Iranian Cluster" ("CIC"), while the people in southeast Iran (Sistan and Balunchistan near the Pakistan border, Persian Gulf islanders, and the Arab speaking population in southwest Iran in Khuzistan) and Iranian Turkmen fall outside this cluster. The Central Iranian Cluster (CIC) is genetically closest to Europeans and shares common ancestry with them in comparison with other Iranian groups which fall outside the CIC.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1008385
     

Share This Page