Is a libertarian is essentially a slow conservative?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by james M, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Needless to say that just does to PROVE that libertarians are woefully LACKING in their own subject matter knowledge of the HISTORY of their fallacious dogma.

    For starters let's just put this indisputable FACT on the record.

    There has NEVER been a successful libertarian government in the history of the world!

    The original Articles of Confederation was as ATTEMPT to form a libertarian government. It was such an ABJECT FAILURE that it was SCRAPPED and replaced with our current Constitution.

    Moving forward to our CURRENT libertarian problems. The Koch brothers came up with their party platform in the 1980's and when they failed they BOUGHT the GOP politicians instead. The hard factual evidence can be seen in how the GOP platform morphed into the libertarian one we have today.

    The Koch brothers were the movers and shakers behind electing Brownback who then IMPOSED libertarian tax policies onto the state of Kansas with DISASTROUS results for the good citizens of the state. It was so appalling that they ended up forming a bipartisan coalition in the KS legislature to REPEAL his FAILED libertarian policies.

    As far as TX goes libertarians have NOTHING to be proud about. Their tax policies have resulted in one of the WORST performing education systems (43rd) in the nation. TX is ranked 41st for healthcare and comes in at #1 for having the most water polluting industries in the nation. It ranks 4th highest in TRI environmental pollution.

    All of the above just goes to prove that selfish libertarianism does far more HARM than good to hardworking Americans.
     
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  2. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Because taxes are the price we pay to live in a CIVILIZED SOCIETY. (Oliver Wendell Holmes)

    Nothing stopping you from going somewhere else and starting your own libertarian society but We the People have discovered that it is a FAILURE which is why we have programs like Social Security.
     
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  3. John Sample

    John Sample Well-Known Member

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    Actually there was no right to privacy. That was an invention of the "penumbra and emanation" court. You have a right to protection from unreasonable search and seizure, yes. And now you have to divulge virtually everything to the IRS. Right to privacy? My ass.
     
  4. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ya'll just can't stand the idea of not having power over others. Justify all you want, but its in plain view for anyone looking.
     
  5. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

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    Holy **** the amount of ignorance is astonishing. The Libertarian party was formed in the early 70s.. LOL HAHAHAHA! What a ****ing ignorant and uneducated load of trash that you just wrote. You literally had to spend time cherry picking things like water pollution. How many pages of links did you skip over.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckd...ates-1-in-5-americans-call-home/#414eb29353bd

    Texas has a much higher quality of life as well including for Hispanics which you progressives pretend to care about so much.

    https://calwatchdog.com/2014/09/30/...ieve-ca-latinos-in-broad-array-of-categories/

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ranks-last-quality-life-new-report/384853002/

    https://www.businessinsider.com/california-worst-quality-of-life-2018-3

    I am laughing in your lying progressive face at you pathetic attempts to try and paint ANYTHING about California in a positive manner. Your responses are laughable and sad.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  6. John Sample

    John Sample Well-Known Member

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    We are in the process of discovering that Social Security is a failure. A program where the government collects your "retirement investment," spends it yesterday, and leaves your Congress 30 years down the road with an empty bag of promises makes Wall Street default swap brokers look pretty good.
     
  7. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    There are two important aspects. First, classical liberalism is not consistent with the ideologues who have appropriated the libertarian tag. For example, Adam Smith would arguably be much closer to modern liberals (given his focus on morality etc.). Second, the analysis from that period cannot be applied today as capitalism has evolved in ways that the dead classical would not understand.

    Given the natural tendency towards market concentration, the difference is illusionary.

    Mere reference to the economics. The American libertarian is, mind you, surprisingly innocent of the literature into neoliberalism.
     
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  8. John Sample

    John Sample Well-Known Member

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    Why do you find that "surprisingly?" And why do you think there is only one American libertarian?
     
  9. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Your abject failure to deal with the FACT that we live in a civilized society that requires taxation in order to function is not my problem.
     
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  10. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    :roflol:

    Ironic PROJECTION of your own egregious shortcomings duly noted for the record and ignored for derogatory reasons.

    When the libertarian party was formed is utterly irrelevant given that libertarianism was still 100% responsible for the failure of the Articles of Confederation.

    That you could not address the FACTS about TX under the malign influence of libertarianism and instead made a feeble attempt at deflection is par for the course for those whose confirmation bias is challenged by reality.
     
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  11. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Social Security would be fully funded by simply removing the income cap on contributions.
     
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  12. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Because it dominates academic discourse, with the focus on how market fundamentalism has actually engineered further coercion.

    Personal experience and the nature of the online sites do indicate considerable homogeneity.
     
  13. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    Other countries use nursing homes, too, as much as we do, reallybigjohnson.
     
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  14. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

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    Its really sad that you keep trying. You cherry pick a post about polluted water and then I come back and destroy your feeble andincompetent post with links to how California is THE MOST POLLUTED STATE in the entire country. I almost feel bad for you sitting their skipping link after link after link going back to the double digit pages to find something.........anything that justifies your myopic and incredibly fanatical viewpoint. You are definitely a liberal as facts will NEVER change your mind.

    Libertarianism was founded in the 1970s, once again it didn't even exist before then but please go and and continue to show everyone on this forum how woefully uneducated you are.
     
  15. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    This made me laugh. The OED has the first reference to the libertarians at 1789.
     
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  16. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

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    I can go back and find references to liberalism and it has nothing in common with today's liberals. The Libertarian movement began in the 1950s and was cemented in the LIbertarian party in the 1970s. Furthermore I can find references to left wing and right wing, liberals and conservatives in other countries and they are nothing like what they are in the US today. Maybe this subject is to complicated for you but once again. The Libertarian party was not founded until 1971. It never existed before then, there was never a libertarian party before 1971. The party picked that name specficially because classical liberal was now associated with "progressives" who are as authoritarian as you can possibly get.
     
  17. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Wow, you've gone back two decades already. Even then you're not right. The first political reference in America is 1945. They're slow, but not that slow!
     
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  18. chingler

    chingler Banned at Members Request

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    a libertarian is a stoner who occasionally votes for a republican.
     
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Anything that mandates participation is not civilized.
     
  20. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what you're talkin about.


    I don't know what you mean by modern liberal. If you mean modern Democrat please don't make me laugh. They are absolutely not liberal.

    I'm sorry we're not capitalists anymore we are corporatists.


    government control through corporation is vastly different than capitalism. The two are mutually exclusive.


    no it's using a lot of words to say nothing. Do people think that makes them sound educated.
     
  21. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Thought it was obvious. Classical liberalism does not translate into the conservatism that have wrongly appropriated the libertarian tag.

    Adam Smith would certainly be closer to the Democrats.

    As I said, this just ignores the economics. Capitalism tends towards market concentration.

    Utter nonsense. Government is a key economic agent in capitalism. Capitalism is inherently unstable and therefore government is vital. The US just does it spectacularly inefficiently as the elite is worried about empowering the working classes (e.g. the military industrial complex is also handy for Military Keynesianism)

    No effort to actually respond to what has been said, again. Has neoliberalism completely passed you by?
     
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  22. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    that's a stupid point. I wasn't talking about conservatives who wrongly blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

    I was talking about libertarians.


    the Democrats aren't liberal in the least.


    how does it ignore the economics explain?


    false you do not need a government at all for capitalism.
    false see above.


    you are describing corporatism not capitalism



    nothing has been said. Word salad is generally gibberish that uneducated people say to try and seem as if they are intellectual.

    neoliberalism is dead. Democrats and people who are on the far left that vote for them are authoritarians is in not liberal in the least. If anybody is neoliberal these days it's the Republicans.
     
  23. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    I'll slow down for you. American libertarians are not libertarians. They are conservatives. American libertarians are not classical liberals. Classical liberals would in fact be closer to modern liberalism (I used Smith and his moral sentiments to illustrate the point)

    There are certainly quite a few Democrats who are in reality conservative. That's the nature of politicians desperately searching for the median voter. Look up something like Hotelling location game theory.

    Already said. You've ignored how capitalism tends towards market concentration (and therefore creates the corporatism that you then say isn't capitalism).

    Laissez faire is neither achievable or desirable. What is the neoliberalism that you ignore? A market fundamentalism based on using 'free market economics' to further enable rent seeking behaviour (further intensifying inefficient inequalities).

    No, I'm describing capitalism. You merely try to define it as a 'pie in a sky' paradigm similar to textbook perfect competition.

    I was clearly correct. Neoliberalism has indeed passed you by. You're not even aware of the basics. Word salad? Try learning basic definitions!
     
  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    False.

    is that would be libertarians.

    you'll have to list some names because I don't even find that most Republicans are conservative.

    Derp


    corporatism isn't capitalism.


    this is just something socialists that have appropriated the title of liberalism say.

    imaginary.

    more word salad


    False

    you suck at reading minds.


    False what you are desperately trying to masquerade as neoiberalism is indeed authoritarianism.

    Insulting me because you suck at communication is quite pathetic and immature. Do grow up.
     
  25. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You've got definitions wrong and then blamed me. There's not a lot more I can say. This summed it up: "neoliberalism is dead. Democrats and people who are on the far left that vote for them are authoritarians is in not liberal in the least. If anybody is neoliberal these days it's the Republican". You haven't understood that neoliberalism is market fundamentalism, nor have you understood its the reality of fake libertarianism (rather than classical liberalism). Its about taking the myth of 'free markets' and coercing greater inequalities.

    Teach yourself the basics and then get back to me.
     

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