Is BATF Forming A National Firearm Owners Database?

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Well Bonded, Dec 23, 2020.

  1. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Background.
    Normally the BATF form 4473 has been held by the FFL preventing the government from using them to build a national firearm owners database, it seems they have changed their policy and are now requiring FFL's to ship to BATF all 4473's that are 20 or more years old.

    Yea 20 years is a long time back, but if the government wants to build a national firearms owners database, they have to start somewhere.

    Active Federal Firearms License (FFL) Records

    ATF may lawfully collect firearms transaction records from active dealers where those records are more than 20 years old. ATF uses these records to complete firearms trace requests for law enforcement agencies in furtherance of criminal investigations. If these records are discarded, information contained in those records will be lost forever and a vital investigative tool will be unavailable for use in law enforcement investigations. The ATF National Tracing Center (NTC) has been prevented in the past from completing urgent traces related to violent crimes, to include homicide, where licensees had destroyed records over 20 years old.

    Therefore, ATF strongly encourages licensees to send to ATF Out of Business Records Center those records greater than 20 years old that they may otherwise destroy
     
  2. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    "Urgent traces"
    Yeah.
    How many violent crimes have gone unsolved because the gun used in said crimes could not be traced to the person who bought it from an FFL 20+ years ago?
    I Have $100 on zero.
     
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  3. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Conversely how many law abiding people have firearms in their possession that are 20 or more years old?

    When it comes time to collect them, visit the family and find out who is now in possession of the handed down firearm.

    A lot of people have firearms that where handed down over the years, heck the American Rifle-15 has been around since 1964 or so, that's what 56 years and when politicians like Sleepy Joe and Kamalatoe get in power, the AR-15 will be on the top of their assault rifle banned list.

    And what's a better way to start collecting that evil up to be confiscated and destroyed then a national 4473 data base.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2020
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  4. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Good news is the 4473s didn't exist before 1968.
     
  5. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oh that helps a lot... yea right.

    They start with a amnesty period, turn your rifle in and get a Walmart gift card for $500, when that period runs out they check their list to find out who has been naughty or nice and you don't want to be on the naughty side of that list.
     
  6. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Eventually, they run out of agents.
     
  7. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not if they take their time, this is a long term goal and time is on their side.
     
  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Most FFL’s I’m familiar with will tell the BATFE to shove “strongly encourage”. At least they talk that game. Places like Bass Pro, Dick’s etc. probably stumbling over themselves to comply. Maybe it matters who you choose to do business with even if it costs a little more....
     
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  9. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I used to buy from a little hole in the wall shop in Hollywood, one day the owner asked me if I might be interested in buying him out, he was getting up in the years, had some property up in Carolina and wanted to retire. The problem for him was he didn't want to close and have to turn over the 4473's to BATF, he didn't think that was the right thing to do to his customers. I was already running a electrical contracting business and had to turn him down, but I did let him know I get the word out and try to find someone to take over. He called me a while later and asked if I would be willing to work in the shop on the weekends, his son was going to take over the business but didn't know much about firearms and nothing about running a business, he went on to say I will take good care of your wallet if you could help us out, so I agreed to help out.

    Now the place was only open Thursday through Sunday so cutting back to weekends wasn't going to be too much of a problem, I worked there for almost a year and his dad stayed on for a few months until the new licensing was issued to his son and since the business never shut down the 4473's stayed in the warehouse, it helped a lot that his son and his son's wife where smart and caught on fast, hit the ground running and came up to speed on how to run a business very quickly.

    I walked away with a nice chunk of money and a few more handguns as a bonus.

    So yea you are correct some FFL's don't trust BATF with the 4473's.
     
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  10. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent. Thanks for sharing and for helping keep records out of the BATFE’s hands.
     
  11. Siskie

    Siskie Active Member

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    My state does not have any registration or laws against private sales.

    “We have come for the guns you bought years ago.”

    “Sold them years ago at a gun show. No receipts or proof of sale, because that was not required.”

    “Can I check to see if you have them.”

    “Sure”.

    No guns found, leaves.

    Goes to place off property they are buried and brings them back home after search is complete.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
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  12. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The only problem with that is how do you know when someone is going to stop by and ask that question and what good it is to have a gun you cannot use without going to jail.
     
  13. Siskie

    Siskie Active Member

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    Not going to come to that anyway. We have the Supreme Court and red states will ignore a federal ban in the same way blue states ignore federal marijuana and immigration laws. And $500 for a $1,200 rifle? No thanks. Not constitutional and since I am the seller, I set the price. $1,000,000 per rifle or no deal.
     
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  14. Siskie

    Siskie Active Member

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    Also, I could use the same strategy I will use if my state gets red flag laws. Since they can be abused by anti-gun nuts to harass gun owners (since no proof is required just guilty until proven innocent l), I could hide most of my guns off property preemptively and keep a couple “turn in guns” to throw the scent off. Then as soon as I am disarmed, drive to my stash and get armed again. Fooled them.
     
  15. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    "No"
    /the end
     
  16. joesnagg

    joesnagg Banned

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    If the Democrats take the Senate NOTHINGS off the table, we'll have to rely on the courts and that's a crapshoot in the best of times. I'm currently on a diet of pork 'n beans and baloney sandwiches while I purchase the last two guns I intend to, along with all the ammo I can lay hands on before Jan. 20th. I'm takin' old Joe at his word, he'll start his assaults on the 2nd Amendment day one via executive orders, followed in lockstep by Democrats in congress AND every regulatory agency that can lay the slightest claim to having a say in the matter.
     
  17. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oddly enough, Biden in a conference with some of his progressive supporters seemed to deflate the tires on the assault banners wagon stating doing so is not Constitutional and is not going to violate the Constitution.

     
  18. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Problem, that is a little tough to do when you are in prison for possessing a banned firearm and lying to law enforcement about having it.

    The only person you are fooling is yourself.
     
  19. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you mean the same Supreme Court that is ignoring election fraud and the states can ignore a law all they want and lose DOJ funding for law enforcement for doing so.


    You don't have a choice, either their offer or that take the firearm and you get to sue to try to get it back and with attorney's charging between $350 to $500 per hour, what's the break point where fighting becomes more expensive then what the firearms are worth.

    And never forget when fighting the government, you are paying two attorneys, your attorney out of you pocket and the governments attorney's out of you tax's and the government knows that, which is why the abuse the system to extort defendant into surrendering, this is why many large corporations have settled cases with government, knowing they are innocent, but agree to a settlement because fighting to prove their innocence would cost them way more then paying a settlement with no admission of guilt.
     
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  20. joesnagg

    joesnagg Banned

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    Interesting...but when a politician tells me day is light and night is dark.... well, experience tells me I have to look outside to see for myself. As for "unconstitutional", when has that been a deterrent for the anti-gunners in government to give it the old college try? We'll find out though soon enough.
     
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  21. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not really, they back off and just get a search warrant, then they get the firearms they are seeking plus everything they wish to take and you get to fight them in court to maybe get some of it back.

    That is unless some SWAT guy perceives a threat and kills you.
     
  22. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I understand where you are coming from, but I also understand when Biden gets off script he speaks his mind or what he has left of one, which is quite often totally different than what his handlers want him to say.

    Now if they can get Biden out of the way, I can assure Kamelatoe will come after everything, damm the Constitution, that antiquated ink on parchment means nothing to her.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
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  23. Siskie

    Siskie Active Member

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    No deal. Anyone coming for my property will be treated the same way as any burglar wanting to rob me of my possessions would be treated.
     
  24. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yea, that's a good way to get killed, if the LEO's perceive you as a threat they will react accordingly.
     
  25. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Guaranteed the database already exists. At the very least our metadata has been and is still being and will continue to be processed to catalogue who has what guns (along with every other databse algorythm imagineable). Most likely, the BATFE (and any other agency, really) already has access to this, they just can't officially use it yet. If they don't have access, its one simple signature on a form to get access, and another sig on another form to allow them to officially use it. The only (ostencible) barrier to this are the legalities.

    I mean hell, Amazon knows what most people are going to buy before they buy it. Of course it is known who has what guns within a very tiny margin of error.

    And not just guns. Who's gay, who's religious, who cheats on their marriage, who drinks beer, who likes broccoli... any 'database' is just an algorythm and a warrant away because the data is all already 'there.'
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
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