Is compulsory military service immoral?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Ritter, Mar 10, 2017.

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Is compulsory military service immoral?

  1. Yes

    22 vote(s)
    37.9%
  2. No

    36 vote(s)
    62.1%
  1. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    The other week, Swedish government decided to reinforce military service and this made me think about whether the concept is moral or not and about if it is even effective or at all desireble from a military point of view.

    As I belong to the ideologues who think one should not step on the snake, I am convinced military service is immoral; primarily because it is driven by force but also because it is financed with force - No one should be forced to carry a gun for his government and no one should be forced to pay for something they do not support.

    Furthermore, I cannot even see compulsory military service being even half as effective as having a professional army.

    What's your take?
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  2. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I disagree with almost everything you wrote here except for the "step on the snake" thingy, which I did not understand.

    I certainly do not see military service as immoral...and there are times where people are going to be forced into service to protect the homeland.

    If you are going to be part of this society...you may be forced to participate in the military defense of it, although I think you can avoid carrying a gun.

    If you are going to be part of this society...you may be forced to pay for something you do not support. I consider this just.

    As for, "Furthermore, I cannot even see compulsory military service being even half as effective as having a professional army"...well, okay. You are free to see it that way.

    But often a "professional army" is comprised of people serving under compulsion. Conscripts often are part of a professional army.
     
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  3. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Twas a reference to the "Don't tread on me"-symbol, i.e.Libertarianism.


    There is a huge difference between picking up a gun to kill an actual, approaching threat and being forced into an institution that prepares for a situation of potential threat. With your logic it is then j ust as moral to force every citizen to become a policeman, doctor or dentist.

    I see no use in having uninterested or inconpetent people protecting my homrland and I am sure nobody else does either.


    Just? Really? Are you prepared to stand behind that notion in absurdum or is simply a preference of yours? With what you wrote the Holocaust was just, for example. And I doubt you would argue that is the case. :D

    A professional army is comprised by "the best of the best" and these soldiers will also be paid what they deserve to be paid and the maintance will only cost what it should cost.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
  4. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    Immoral no

    As long as the laws were put into place by a democratically elected body and the citizen has the right to leave the country if they do not agree then it should be fine.

    But lets be clear there is a price to pay for citizenship and it goes beyond taxes. If the price is to high or to onerous then one should emigrate.
     
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  5. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm...

    Oooh right, the gloriously divine and perfectly infallible God of democracy always knows best. Totally forgot about this absolute truth. Please, will you forgive me. :)

    Luckily in the case of Sweden that is possible, but in some countries objecting to military service results in jail-time.
     
  6. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    Well if your country will jail you for not serving then leave. If you cannot, then fight or do your service. There is no morality issue here in serving. Only the actions taken while serving would there be any moral issues. Also in most civilized countries there are rolls where your beliefs can be accommodated.
     
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  7. Woolley

    Woolley Well-Known Member

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    It's not immoral as long as no one can avoid it, male or female. Judging this by the term morality is not very interesting, the correct question should be is it necessary. One can argue that some form of public service by young people is a very good thing whether it is in the military or some other form of service. I for one believe that everyone 18-22 should serve, those years can be wasted quite easily and many could use the discipline and appreciation for life that serving others provides.
     
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  8. VietVet

    VietVet Well-Known Member

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    Wrong. Much of our army is made of people who couldn't find a job, or joined to get educational benefits.
    If compulsory military service is immoral, then Switzerland, Israel, Denmark, Finland, Norway and others are immoral?

    With compulsory military service, chicken-hawk cowards such as Dick Cheney might not be so quick to rush into war. The general population would pay more attention to world events, since they would know someone who would have to serve in a war - right now with only 1% of our population serving, it is easy to ignore the sacrifice of the military.
     
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  9. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yep, I agree. I believe in drafting for our military, and it is the price of living in a nation like America. If she has to be protected, to refuse to serve and send someone else is low life scumbag yellow backed cowardly behavior.

    Anyways, if you want to see faux liberal dems in the military you damn well would have to draft them. I served when the draft was going on, and we had enough troops so you didn't get sent back into combat time and time again wrecking the minds of our soldiers. If you survived your tour in Vietnam, you didn't have to worry about being sent back. We abuse our soldiers due to an all volunteer military not yielding enough soldiers to stop the incessant rotation in and out of combat. Breaking some of our troop's minds. And just because these faux liberals refuse to serve.
     
  10. VietVet

    VietVet Well-Known Member

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    So, Dick Cheney, Donald Trump, Rush Limbaugh, Ted Nugent, Bill O'Reilly and Mitt Romney are all faux liberals? Because all of them dodged the draft. Do yourself a favor and look up Limbaugh's excuse - it is so appropriate!
     
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  11. Diamond

    Diamond Well-Known Member

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    The morality of it would first depend on the particular Nation agenda, and second reasonable justification. If it is for the purpose of a Nation's defense (not offense) and we're talking about a relatively small nation (like Sweden) then I can understand the justifiable necessity. However, if we were talking about the US with an estimated population of 315 million (and already has enough guns to arm every man, woman, and child) that is constantly running all over the World fighting offensively, then that would be unjustifiable. As a civic duty it is moral to safeguard a nation that you live in when it is lacks the capacity to provide that protection relying purely on volunteers.

    Sweden only has a population of just under 10 million, but only has a combat-able population of less than 2 million total. Sweden is not what I would consider a major Waring nation but I believe the last time it was directly threatened was by Norway in 1814. Since then they were in the Congo in the early 60s, Bosnia in the 90s, Libya in 2011, and most recently Afghanistan just back in 2014. So although Sweden could be vulnerable if directly attacked do to the limits of the size military it could mobilize, it doesn't appear that it at risk of being attacked.

    However Sweden's economy isn't that great. In both exports and Imports rank #31 globally, suggesting they are desperate for trade deals. And that means at any time one of their trade partners needs help it's going to be hard for them to say "no." Fighting to defend the homeland is being replace by fighting to better one's economy, but war has proven to be a poor investment.
     
  12. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's not but it can be.

    I don't think it's immoral if that's what is needed to protect your country then it's in fact the opposite, it's moral.

    It can however be immoral if you are forced to serve a government who are immoral or uses their armed forces for immoral actions. Also there may be immoral things that happen within the military one is forced to serve that creates a grey area.
     
  13. Ole Ole

    Ole Ole Banned

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    Home Guard away from Swedish defence then today's form in proffesional and then 4000 in South and 4000 in Sthlm of concripts.
     
  14. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    "Some form of public service" does not compare or equate to military service. Our all volunteer military today is better trained and equipped than the military that fought WW2, Korea and Vietnam but in an all out war we would not have the numbers necessary. That's why we still are required to register for the draft.
     
  15. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Either it is or it isn't.

    It doesn't really matter what the ends are, the mean remains immoral. Force is never to be accepted; compulsory military service is a form of slavery and slavery is always immoral, even if your owner has the sweetest of agendas.

    If you don't aant to serve, then you don't want to serve. Why would anyone want the unwilling to orotect their flag anyways?

    The worst part here is that, even if you manage to get away, you still have to pay to fund the ineffective bs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  16. PrincipleInvestment

    PrincipleInvestment Well-Known Member

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    The only resisistance to cumpulsary service you're likely encounter, is from the mouths of liberal entitlements addicts. For decades liberals crusaded for equal rights for women / LGTB servicemen. Now that all US citizens are on truely equal footing, they decry registering for selective service. Seems these entitled progressive visionaries, only sought to expand the pool of human shields that serve to protect their individual freedoms, and relieve them the obligation to contribute.
    :machinegun::flagus::hiding:
     
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  17. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    If you think I am a Liberal, then think again. Actually, I have already mentioned where I stand politically in this very thread.
     
  18. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The only thing here worth commenting on is that last comment.

    If you think a "professional army" cannot contain conscripts...you are dead wrong.

    I have no idea of what you are talking about regarding the "only cost" stuff.
     
  19. PrincipleInvestment

    PrincipleInvestment Well-Known Member

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    I'm not contradicting your post, just expounding on the liberal mentality. Though the sheltered, privileged lives, and personal freedoms we all enjoy, can all be traced back to patriotic service, and sacrifice, millenials feel they're somehow above service. To add injury to insult, libs rally to deprive those who serve them, the funds for training, equipment, and support. :confusion:
     
  20. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well...I am a guy often labelled a liberal here in this forum...who thinks the OP is nonsense. My guess is that as many liberals as conservatives think it is nonsense.

    There are times where conscription is necessary...and to be honest, I think we would be a much better country if conscription of some sort (not necessarily purely to military service, but to SERVICE of some sort) were made mandatory right now even though it is not necessary.


    In any case, your attempt to make a poorly thought out OP into an indictment of liberals is a joke. But, in many ways, that is the direction American conservatism is taking...down the road to joke.
    ,
     
  21. PrincipleInvestment

    PrincipleInvestment Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing funny about liberals who prefer entitlement spending to defense spending. They scoff at the idea of service, and expect, and even demand subsidies to attend college which essentially insulates them from the draft that they oppose. Selfish, and pathetic.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  22. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is nothing funny about people who use any excuse to vent their anger and hatred toward a group the way you seem to be doing toward the liberals.

    I agree...liberals can be sad, selfish, and pathetic...but so can conservatives.

    And the progressive agenda...is much more humane and non-selfish than the American conservative agenda, which can be summed up with, "I've got mine, screw you."
     
  23. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Pretty damn selfish abd anti-liberal(in the true neaning of the word)to be pro-compulsory military service, if you ask me. :)
     
  24. PrincipleInvestment

    PrincipleInvestment Well-Known Member

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    I'll concede that this sort of selfishness is not limited to liberals. There are of course many instances of conservatives avoiding the draft, though I believe that is based more on elitism. Hence, my view on compulsory service being "universal". I look at compulsory service in Israel, where service is truely a matter of survival. In that stark reality, spoiled, selfish draft dodgers are subject to imprisonment, not applauded as social reformers, or humanitarians.
     
  25. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Start a topic about the military and Americans from all over the political spectrum get equally riled up and start throwing the same type of acid-poop arguments about "selfishness" and "defend my flag". As a non-American, I find this hilarious. :)

    I understand why this is somewhat of a sensitive matter in Murican discourse, but it is still sort of funny that everyone, leftard or conservative, go full Fascist every time the military is on the topic. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017

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