Is everything your god does and has done , "good" and "perfect"?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Sonofodin, Dec 16, 2011.

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Are all acts of god good and perfect?

  1. Yes

    4 vote(s)
    57.1%
  2. No

    1 vote(s)
    14.3%
  3. Non-religious

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  1. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    I aim this question more towards Christian's because I'm not as familiar with other holy books.

    For reference, when I say "god", I am referring to the character in the bible.

    So, I see a lot of Christians that extol the virtues and teachings of god but I find a lot of inconsistencies with that line of thinking within the bible itself.

    Here are some passages that I would say depict very evil acts and atrocities committed by or directed by the god of the bible:


    The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)]

    "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

    There god directly approves of the slaughter of men, women and children..

    And what about rape?


    They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

    Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.


    That's Moses talking, the chosen prophet of god...

    More murder justified by god:


    This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

    That's not to mention the drowning of the entire human race and all the innocent people that died there or the killing of first born sons in Egypt.

    So are even these acts good or is god imperfect and evil sometimes?
     
  2. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Brother, every time I bring up the reality of warfare, atheists duck and run like cats in a spot light.

    The reality of those situations is the reality if warfare in a tribal society. We think total warfare was something that came about with William T. Sherman in the Civil War, and brother, we are wrong.

    War in the ancient time was a thing of survival. When tribes and kingdoms, particularly small ones, went to war - it was all or nothing. The men, ALL of them, went off to fight - they either came back victorious or they died.

    And what was left behind then ... is the women and children. Well, what DO we DO with them, eh?

    Its not like they had Walmart and Welfare back then is it? You had a tight system of supplies and the ability to take in large numbers of ... prisoners is simply not an option.

    So what do you do?

    Do you kill them and be done with it? That happened back then - a lot.

    Do you turn them loose into the desert to be found by bandits or worse, to be raped and killed? Enslaved? Starve? Isn't that just murder?

    Now remember, they are now tribeless, destitute, without family. Do you offer then mercy? A chance to JOIN YOUR SOCIETY? Why how very revolutionary? Oh, wait, you just killed all their brothers and husbands ... hmmm, might be some hard feelings about that, ya think?

    So, you offer them a chance to come in as servants first, and they can work their way into the tribe as full members. The also produce - earn their keep quite literally, because without - there is nothing to feed them. The unwed daughters? Well, like it or not, they are part of the process. In the previous tribe, daughters are married in order to establish position, etc. Now, in THAT context, what does it mean to say, "Take the daughters as your own?"

    Why, that means you allow them to marry their daughters into your tribe to establish themsleves and their positions as if they were already kin. An incredibly generous thing to do someone you could just enslave and make property should you so choose as victor.

    But the real lesson here, is the true lesson, and it is one of war. God does not wish us to go to war. We are ALL his creation, and there is little more displeasing to God than the spilling of innocent blood. Yet, unfortunately, our enemies sometimes do not give us the choice to avoid fighting, and when they come, when they threaten your family and your way of life, you must be prepared to what is necessary to secure those things that worth defending.

    War means having to make very difficult choices, and the intent is to make difficuly but wise choices, knowing that only those choices that end the fighting quickly and establish an equitable peace thereafter, however brutal in the short term, are the wise choices.

    The funny thing? The Koran has EXACTLY the same message about war.

    Now, I often marvel at the reasons why atheists can't get this message, and why, when it is spelled out for them, insist on belittling it anyway?

    And their alternative solution? Their OBVIOUSLY more prefect resolution?
     
  3. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    You didn't answer my question. Since god is omnipotent, he created war in the first place. Are the acts justified, yes or no? The killing of firstborn sons? The flooding of entire populations? I thought Jesus spread a message of peace? It all seems very contradictory to me.

    If god does not wish us to go to war, then why did he order people to go to war? Does that make sense to you?
     
  4. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    No, God gave us free will.

    Please review the purpose that we teach in our churches, you are debating OUR views, not your debotched interpretation of what you think God should be.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/221793-ten-commandments-god.html

    I refuse to debate a screwed up version of God or otherwise defend it - you are asking me to deal with MY faith and that is what we are going to do - or you can shove it. Clear?

    My faith gave us freewill, and an omnipotent being can do whatever he wants ... including grant us freewill. That is ominpotence - no limits. And God, in that little book of ours, clearly gave us ALL choice.

    If that screws up your little theory? Well, then your theory just failed its first test. NO ONE is going to adopt an incorrect version of their own faith just so you can insult them.

    Notice, EXACTLY as predicted, YOUR failure to offer a better solution, which, you standing in their in judgement clearly have?

    No? Go figure. :roll:
     
  5. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    I see you dropped the whole "brother" act, a little agitated are we?

    I'm not giving an interpretation. I'm quoting directly from YOUR holy book. What does free will have to do with this? God ORDERED people to go to war and kill women and children. All I'm asking is whether those of faith consider those actions good. God ordered the death of the women and children as well as actually drowning children! What does that have to do with free will??

    Stop getting defensive and answer the question. Are these acts that were ordered and committed by god "good"?
     
  6. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, God is omnipotent. Guess what our book also makes plain - free will.

    An omnipotent being can do ANYTHING. Do you understand?

    Nope, you just want to twist our faith by selectively choosing things from someone else's.

    What you are NOT dealing with is war - exactly like I predicted.

    So we have now established that you know nothing about two subjects - Christianity and War. :clap:

    Perhaps you would like to reverse this trend by making a valid point on either subject from a persona of aroggant judgement? You've already insulted my faith - TOLD me I am incorrect about my faith because you say so and clearly you know my faith better than me, in order to ... not make a point about warfare. :clap:

    Most people call what you are doing trolling. So hurry up and make a relevant and non-condscending point or we are done. You can bait and flame someone else in order to derive self worth.

    BTW - since we are introducing off topic bits of theology, did you know that most theologians classify atheists as self worshippers? The point is, we can do it to you to.

    So hurry up and make an actual point about the subject you supposedly want to discuss - because what the topic is now is: selective and misleading intepretations of someone else's faith and how that makes them (*)(*)(*)(*)ed up.

    If that is case, change the thread title so people know you are just baiting.
     
  7. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    Okay? What does that have to do with anything? I'm talking about what god has done.

    Yes...that's what the word means. That has nothing to do with the actions being right or wrong.

    Ad hominem.

    So rape and murder of innocent people is justified if it's in a time of war? It's right there in plain text, your god ordered the war. No twisting of faith, it's a direct quote.
    I never told you you were incorrect about your faith. You are not dealing with all of my points. You still have failed to adress the drowning of innocent children and the murder of first born sons.

    Again, useless drivel. When will you answer my question and when will you address the direct acts of murder against children your god committed?

    I'm not an atheist so this doesn't apply. I'm a theological noncognivist. As you'll note, the use of the word god in this discussion refers to the character in your holy book.

    I'll ask you again. Is everything god orders or does good? What about the drowning of babies and the murder of first born sons? How about this one: The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

    When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)


    He killed him for placing his hand on the ark to steady it. Is that an act of good?
     
  8. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Neutral, when God interferes with the world doesn't that sort of eliminate the whole point of free will?

    If God ordered you to partake in the genocide of an entire group of people and you had a choice and you chose not to would you be evil or wrong for disobeying God?

    Basically what I am saying here is, yeah maybe you have a choice, but it's hardly a choice anymore when you feel like you have to follow God's orders otherwise you will be wrong for not doing so, even if you truly believe what God wants you to do is evil.
     
  9. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I didn't read the OP, I am just answering the title.

    Better words to describe the action of God would be "just" and "correct."
     
  10. Ostap Bender

    Ostap Bender Well-Known Member

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    Yes, all Acts of God are good and perfect!
     
  11. Ostap Bender

    Ostap Bender Well-Known Member

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    Almost everything by godless atheists is baiting and insult of believers.
     
  12. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    The emphasized text above shows that the whole issue is a matter of personal perspective and that perspective coming from the mind that is far less than omniscient... so are you presuming to KNOW more than God, or are you simply attempting to express your disdain of such things and FEEL a need to blame God to make up for the fact that you are not smarter than God?
     
  13. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    No, you asked a specific question about a specific context and are now having the standard atheist discussion about how YOU view omnipotence.

    So, why don;t you try offering up an explanation for something rather than a snide criticism. Why do YOU think God did what did? Why are YOU unable to reason it through?

    Heck, while you are at it, why not wait at airports and then chae around guys the walk by in uniform and call them baby killers - many of them probably killed someone too. Therefore they are cleary imperfect, and far less perfect than athe likes of you - who will never solve, just criticize.

    God is prefect, atheists are just whiners who selectively quote and are unable to solve anything.
     
  14. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Yep, and like every atheists (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)r who has ever made the same arguement, and they ALL make the same arguement, he is unable to deal with context, situational facts, etc.

    He still hasn't responded to, or offered up any alternatives, to the second post. Surprisingly, neither has any other atheist - ever.

    Its all about castigation and blame, when everyone else on the planet can look at, understands that context in judgement is important, and see that God uses this - just like out courts - and that this is wise and correct.

    Of course the same baiting morons of atheism will tell you with one hand that context is important, necessary, and yet then turn around and tell us that we are contradictory. :omfg:

    Modern atheists appear to have no standards.
     
  15. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    Yes I did, your answer was it was war so it was justified. No. God started the war, it had nothing to do with free will. For the fifth time I'll mention the flooding of the earth and the killing of first born sons. Those had nothing to do with free will either.

    I don't have much of an opinion on why a fictional character acted in a horrendously evil way. I aimed this question at christians because they believe this character exists.

    I don't even know what you're talking about. Who said I was trying to solve something? It's a moral question.

    Selectively quote? What did I say in the OP? I said that the quotes were some of the worst things god had done. You're picking and choosing if you don't want to deal with the good AND the bad. It's just pathetic, never can we get through a religious thread without name calling and finger pointing.

    God murdered innocent people as well as approving of rape. Period. Does that agree with your moral compass or not?
     
  16. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    I already said I wasn't an atheist. Are you skipping over my posts?
     
  17. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Sure you aren't.

    You are dleiberately misinterpreting the Bible, using THEIR definitions and limitations, and once again lecturing us about how screwed up we are.

    Are you ashamed of what you are?

    You call yoruself whatever you want - your actions mark you as exactly what you are.

    BTW - the defensive, geez, you guys can't read - yep, straight out of atheism 101.

    Still waiting for ANOTHER atheist to offer some insight on warfare. Not going to happen any time soon, because, as I state in post #2 - atheists only want to crap on people - and accuse us of not being able to read.
     
  18. Sonofodin

    Sonofodin New Member

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    When did I say that? Stop attacking me and address the points I'm making or leave the thread.

    No, it seems your ignorant of what an "atheist" actually is. Atheism is defined by lack of belief in a god(s). I'm a theological noncognitivist, I believe the word god is meaningless until it is defined coherently. For the purposes of this discussion, god refers to the character "YHWH" or "Lord" described in the bible,

    Your affirming the consequent, this is a common logical fallacy.


    I feel sorry for you, you can't have a discussion without attacking and flaming the other person. Stop clumping people together and just look at the points I make.
     
  19. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Yes, ordering the Jews to kill everyone man, woman, and child is good and just.

    How can ask for a better basis of morality?

    Love and tolerance is just so overrated.
     
  20. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    You are speaking about a two way street. In order to obtain the positive benefits of 'morality', 'morality' must be paramount in the lives of all who are participants in that system of 'morality'.
     
  21. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Oh, are your feeling hurt?

    How about we start with ominpotence, and then the totally avoided context of warfare that you have yet to offer a comment on?

    Shall we start there super victim?

    Stop attacking others.

    Oh, atheists are hard to figure out? A bunch of guys that run around misquoting other people's holy books, offer no solutions, and pretend to be victims ... and even deny being atheists?

    Yeah, you guys are tough to spot.

    Actions speak louder than words is indeed a logical fallacy to atheists who do not like being held to standards and accountability.


    Pot calls kettle black. You are calling us a bunch of murderers, twisting out faith in grotesque manners, and calling it a discussion about, rather than derisive lecture of, our faith. :clap:

    But when when someon points that out, suddenly you are all angry? Who cares?

    Now, lets see if you can indeed read English, after having charged others with not being able to do it, and see if you can follow this.

    YOUR own actions lump you in with the other atheists. YOUR silly arguement about imnipotence is straight out of atheist 101 propoganda, the Bible verse you attempt to quote - you didn't find them - you ripped them off of an atheist web site - just like all your other peers did.

    AND just like all your little peers, you have absolutely nothing of value to offer about the subject or morality of war NOTHING

    I am sure you thought you were special, and sorry to burst your bubble, but everything you have written is standard propoganda from atheism - nothing original about it. Your thoughts are far from special - they are reheased, regurgitated mantra. Nothing else.

    Oh, I suppose you don;t like hearing that, we don;t like having one flaming troll of an atheist after another come in and start discussing one topic and then immediately pull a bait and switch to pummel people over the head with the same nonsensical lines they always bleet and never actually discuss.

    So, if your just gonna tell us how screwed up we are - stuff it. SOme of us thought this was supposed be a discussion about warfare and morality, as opposed to flame fest where atheists want to talk about what trash Christians are and then get upset when someone tells them to stop behaving like immature children.

    Choice is your cowboy. But if you offer no respect, indeed disrespect, do not expect any in return.

    Start by using that keen insight into how screwed up we are, to tell us something of merit about war? Go ahead. I dare you.

    You'd be the first atheist EVER to prove me wrong on that subject. You say you want to discuss? Prove it.
     

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