Is free health care REALLY free?

Discussion in 'Budget & Taxes' started by Buckshot, Mar 16, 2016.

  1. Buckshot

    Buckshot New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So, as the title questions, is free health care actually free?

    This "free" health care that we keep hearing about, is not really free. When you pay taxes, that money goes to the government, the people who are guaranteeing this so-called "free healthcare". So, you're technically still paying for healthcare, correct? You are only paying the government for it, in stead?

    Tell me what you think.
     
  2. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    49,910
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course you are still paying for it. The point is the free market does not work for health care. In every country that has socialized medicine medical care is better at less cost.
     
  3. Buckshot

    Buckshot New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    How is it better?
     
  4. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    49,910
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Uh.....I told you. Its costs less and the WHO ranks the outcome indicators better in virtually every category
     
  5. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    8,851
    Likes Received:
    1,414
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Anytime somene says socalized or single payer I remind them that we already had that in this country. The veterans health system IS SINGLE PAYER and it was a colossal failure by every measure from cost to performance. It was managed by the government, paid for by the government and taxes so you can't blame the insurance companies and it was a travesty.
     
  6. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    49,910
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We still have it. Its called medicare and it works GREAT
     
  7. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    8,851
    Likes Received:
    1,414
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's not singlepayer and no it doesn't work great. They only pay around half of the bill so people with normal insurance end up paying more. If you moved everything to singlepayer they wouldn't be able to get away with underpaying and having private insurance and individuals picking up the extra cost. Google UK heathcare deficits and you can see for yourself that they can't cook the books any longer over there in your vaunted leftist socalized system and they are going broke and there are massive lines just to get into emergency rooms and of course the famous multi year long waits for simple operations in the UK.

    The ONLY true singlepayer system in this country is the VA system which uses only one type of payment system and isn't a hybrid of public and private like medicare is. The VA system is a complete failure.
     
  8. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,606
    Likes Received:
    2,034
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Is baby powder made from real babies?

    If that’s truly the case, it only demonstrates that a series of American governments failed, not that single-payer is automatically a failure.

    Maybe you could give some of your immigrants a shot at running your healthcare system. ;)
     
  9. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    49,910
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Medicare pays 80% of costs. Look every other modern country on the planet already has some form of socialized medicine and it is working great. The UK is going on 65 years of it. The people love it or they would vote it out
     
  10. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    9,436
    Likes Received:
    1,275
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What I worry about is that socialized medicine is really just a charity project.

    And the profits generated by the USA pays for it all for the rest of the world.

    I worry if we switch to a "healthcare for all" model, that lowers the cost of medical care, that the pharmaceutical industry will go bankrupt taking all of our cures with them.
     
  11. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    9,093
    Likes Received:
    3,289
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's not that simple. For instance, the entire democrat party's modus operandi revolves around the truth that it is really easy to give out government entitlements, and once you have, nearly impossible for anyone to take them back. In many cases, it's not that "they know what they like", it's that "they like what they know".
     
  12. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    49,910
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It is only impossible to take something back if it is hugely successful. And it should be hard to take back if it is hugely successful
     
  13. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Messages:
    9,093
    Likes Received:
    3,289
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The "war on poverty", from a performance point of view, is an abject failure. It is impossible to take back.

    There are many many such examples.

    You said this:
    The point I was originally trying to make is only this: Just because The People, in THIS country, have not managed to do away with a government program, is no indication that it has been successful, or that they love it.
     
  14. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    49,910
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Actually that is the only indication. If the people hated it many people run on a campaign to get rid of it and they are elected and it is gone. The UK has had the NHS for 65 years. they love it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually the war on poverty has been a resounding success. The poor in this country live a much better standard of living than in many countries (though not as well in countries that have a more socialist philosophy).
     
  15. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    8,851
    Likes Received:
    1,414
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ah.. you are correct its Medicaid that only pays about half. 80% is still not all of it though which means the remainder is picked up by private insurance and private individuals. No every other country with socialized medicine is NOT looking great. The current best system in my view is Switzerland which is closer to ours than socialized care but has changes in it such as tying insurance to individuals instead of company wide insurance which you lose if you switch jobs.

    I already suggested that you google UK health operation and emergency waiting times. The same problem exists in Canada where some Provinces are spending large parts of their revenue just on health care alone and they still have to cut corners and ration.

    The reason that our health care costs more is because of illogical distribution of resources such as two hospitals both have multiple MRI machines even if they are right next to each other and the fact that they charger far more for prescriptions than other countries you artificically limit the prices. The US population in fact subsidizes other countries medicine which is why its much more expensive here.

    We also pay our nurses and doctors more than other countries and the EU has a huge physician shortage of their own to contend with.
     
  16. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    49,910
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They have studied wait times and found them very similar between the US and other countries. Look these people love these programs. You couldn't get elected dog catcher in England or Canada if you said you were going to touch them. They work.
     
  17. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    8,851
    Likes Received:
    1,414
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes I am aware of the polls but that is because as soon as they are born every British person is constantly bombarded with bull(*)(*)(*)(*) propaganda about how great the NHS is. Did you see the disgusting display at the London Olympics? Goebbels would be envious of that kind of propaganda.

    Both Sweden and the UK (the ones constantly touted by the left for their singlepayer systems) have the fewest doctors per capita as well as fewer beds per capita compare to other European countries like Germany. The NHS isn't even purely singlepayer anymore because they had to start utilizing private services because of huge cost overruns and long wait times and they still have problems today. It's a failed system. Switzerland has superior survival rates, shorter wait times, newer technology (in fact its on par with US system in receiving the latest treatments) and just are all around better.

    With a few tweaks we could have moved closer to the Swiss model but no, you guys had to pass Obamacare which has the best hand job that the insurance companies have ever gotten. They don't even go to their Asian massage parlors anymore they just pull out their Obamacare summaries to get themselves off.

    http://www.oecd.org/unitedkingdom/46507653.pdf
     
  18. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2016
    Messages:
    49,910
    Likes Received:
    5,336
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No the WHO ranks the UK and Canada much higher than us in most healthcare outcomes for much less cost. The only place we are superior is if you are super rich.....then the best care money can buy is here. But for 99 percent of people they are much better

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the way Switzerland is the size of a postage stamp
     
  19. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,495
    Likes Received:
    403
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Because some things are better to pay for with pooled taxpayer dollars.

    Like roads, bridges, the military, schools, public buildings, protection agencies like the EPA and FEMA, the police, firefighters, trash pick up, etc etc etc.
     
  20. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    48,220
    Likes Received:
    6,375
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What money is going to the gov't?
    And who, but the right, claims it's free?
     
  21. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    48,220
    Likes Received:
    6,375
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Because it didn't have the backing of the people. And the R's try to defund veterans benefits any chance they get. Unless it's to enlist them. Once they're out, they cut funding to help them.
     
  22. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    48,220
    Likes Received:
    6,375
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What has the pharma's cured? They prescribe prescriptions for life. That's not a cure, that's income.
     
  23. LibChik

    LibChik Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,495
    Likes Received:
    403
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I have dual citizenship and lived in Canada for years. The health care is simple and easy. I never saw a medical bill while I was there...there's no such thing as co-pays.

    And by the way, I've paid taxes in both countries and it was pretty much the same as what I pay now. In fact, my property taxes are higher in the US which is amusing because public education is wayyyyyyy superior in Canada.

    If I ever sell my business, I'd consider retiring permanently in Canada because if we have to deal with health issues as me and my husband age...I'd way rather deal with it there.
     
  24. gamewell45

    gamewell45 Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    Messages:
    22,490
    Likes Received:
    2,456
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nothing in this world, except air, is free.
     
  25. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    8,851
    Likes Received:
    1,414
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You keep quoting the WHO rankings which are seriously flawed at best. Even the editor of the WHO report said that it was seriously flawed as many inputs had to be guessed because they didn't have any reliable data for them.

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1001849?query=TOC

    You say that Switzerland is the size of a postage stamp but you have no problems dumping the entire United States into one field even if that means including Northeastern states that all have 95% coverage with states like California and Texas and Florida which have substantially lower coverage rates. So if you are going to critique it that way then you need to compare European countries to each state and in that regards depending on which state you live in you are getting substantially better care more quickly than any socialized country.

    That is what's great about this country. If you don't like the health care in the state you are living in now you can just move to another one and get what you want.

    https://wallethub.com/edu/rates-of-uninsured-by-state-before-after-obamacare/4800/
     

Share This Page