Is the 'right to bear arms' unlimited?

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by chris155au, Nov 10, 2020.

  1. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    All assault weapons are prohibited?

    Why is homicide and suicide worse when it is with a gun rather than other means? And why is 'legal intervention death' relevant?
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  2. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Since 1999, according to CDC, the rate of suicide by hanging/suffocation grew by 111% with almost 14,000 victims in 2018, compared to the gun suicide rate of 13%. The gun suicide rate grew at less than half the rate of non-gun suicides over that time period.

    Are those who allow access to belts and ropes to blame for the hanging/suffocation suicides?
     
  3. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Everyday items can not be banned. Guns are primarily weapons.
     
  4. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Guns are primarily items in common use for lawful purposes that never harm anyone.
     
  5. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Not worse but more common.

    In UK, knives are primary weapons. Murder rate is lower because it is much harder.
     
  6. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Justifiable homicides are 35 times less common then criminal homicides.
     
  7. Rucker61

    Rucker61 Well-Known Member

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    Lawful uses of firearms outnumber criminal homicides by orders and orders of magnitudes.
     
  8. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Like hunting and target shooting.

    Guns are expensive toys which cost 34,000 lives each year in USA.
     
  9. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Show where Democrats are calling for fascist actions like Trump has. The state’s are suppose to handle demonstrations, not the feds. That’s fascism. It’s the gop that practices voter suppression, that’s fascism. It’s the fascism too when the fed tries to take over control of elections that’s a constitutional right of states. Trump is a fascist dictator wannabe.
     
  10. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Autos don’t kill people either, bit they need to be registered and operated sadly by trained licensed drivers.....just like all firearms should. We’ve cut death by autos dramatically over the years with more safety devices and stricter regulation. The same should be done to fire arms.
     
  11. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I agree with your post, which seems a bit more reasonable than our previous debate on this topic. Though this still leaves those devilish details as to where the line, exactly, falls.

    I just wanted, in this thread, to add this consideration. Back when the Constitution was written, there did not exist the disparity between hunting rifles & military (or militia) arms, which exists today. In fact, the hunting rifles of the revolting American colonists were more accurate than the rifles of the great English army, because of the American innovation of putting a spiral groove, within the barrel's bore, which imparted a spin to the lead ball, resulting in its keeping a truer course.

    While some might interpret this to mean that citizens have the right to possess military-grade weaponry, I think this would be a purely speculative reading. It seems more likely, if anything, that arms designed specifically for modern war, could be seen as a different class of weapon than the American colonists of the time possessed (and so was the point of reference for the Constitution's framers). Still, it must be admitted that, since this fundamental difference between these two types of firearms, as far as their potential time frames for inflicting mass casualties, could not have been considered when the Constitution was written-- no army in that day possessed anything nearly so devastating as machine guns, automatic, or semi-automatic rifles, or even gattling guns-- the Constitutional verdict is, necessarily, less than clear-cut. The most reasonable, factually-supported attitude, therefore, is bipartite: 1) weapons with today's high-capacity capabilities can legitimately be seen as distinct from the type of arms available to both civilians & national armies at the time of the Constitution's writing; therefore, 2a) one must look at later precedents and, 2b) in lieu of decisiveness among those, could only regard the question as something unsettled, yet to be determined, by the federal judiciary.
     
  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    So then isn't the more relevant statistic the difference in murder rate between the US and other countries? And why is 'legal intervention death' relevant? I notice that you cut this from your quote of my post.
     
  13. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Driving on public roads is not a right. Bearing Arms is. The only regulation that needs to be done with guns is that of preventing murder. And we already have laws that prohibit that.
     
  14. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Very true. And Trump did not handle them. He DID protect federal property, as is his job, and that was it.

    Both sides do their own forms of voter suppression. And has for longer than either of us have been alive. Put together.

    All Trump has done is the same thing that Gore did, hell, Gore's lawsuits lasted until December 10th.
     
  15. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Actually the majority of both the American and British troops had the "Brown Bess" and "French Charleville" both of which was a smooth bore musket with an accuracy of up to 80yards. The only ones that held a gun that could fire more accurately at a distance were snipers due to those particular guns being rifled, and both sides had those.

    The Founders were highly intelligent men who was living through an era of inventions where new technology was being discovered and old technology being improved upon (including guns). I would agree that the Founders couldn't have imagined planes and atom bombs. But it wouldn't take much of an imagination (even if they didn't have the evidence before their very eyes) that guns would be improved upon so much that they could inflict mass casualties. They had cannons, muskets, rifles, hand guns...most of them invented or known about during their own life time. For example look up the "Puckle Gun" (not a widely used weapon granted, but it was known about), it was patented in 1718.
     
  16. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Protect federal property by clearing a PUBLIC WAY so he could hold a bible upside down for a photo-opt ?
     
  17. dagosa

    dagosa Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law

    That’s completely insane.

    Guess you have never traveled on a public road way. They are all maintained by tax funded governments that do the job themselves or contract the work out to dedicated private businesses heavy regulated by the fed, state local govts. ALL public roads are sustained by the govts acting under the power provided by the constitution’s of state, federal and local govts. to provide access to life sustaining resources, even those provided by private enterprises.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law

    Guns are regulated EVERY WHERE IN THE UNITED STATES just like public ways and highways and the means to to travel on them are. You’re delusional.Laws exist only because of constitutional authority .
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  18. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    The hunting rifle I was referring to was known as a long rifle, or longrifle, also Pennsylvania rifle or Kentucky rifle, according to wikipedia. It was invented in the early 1700s, was immediately popular in the colonies, had a rifled (spiral-grooved) barrel, a range of up to 200 yds. for an experienced user (100 yds. typical), and had also been used in the earlier French & Indian War.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_rifle

    The long rifle, also known as longrifle, Kentucky rifle, Pennsylvania rifle, or American longrifle, was one of the first commonly used rifles for hunting and warfare.[1] It is characterized by an unusually long barrel, a development in American rifles that was uncommon in European rifles of the same period.

    "Pennsylvania/Kentucky" Rifle

    Type muzzleloading long rifle
    Place of origin Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA
    Service history
    In service circa 1700-circa 1900
    Used by British American colonies (until 1776)
    United States (1776-20th century)
    Wars French and Indian War, American Indian Wars, American Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Texan Revolution, Mexican-American war, American Civil War,
    Production history
    Designer Martin Meylin and/or Robert Baker
    Designed circa 1700s
    No. built approximately 73,000
    Variants Hunting variant
    Specifications
    Mass Variable, typically 7 to 10 lbs.
    Length 54 in. to over 70 in.
    Barrel length 32 in., to over 48 in.
    Caliber .25 cal to .62 cal - .40 to .48 cal was most common
    Action Flintlock, Percussion-(predominant after 1850)
    Rate of fire User dependent, Usually 2+ rounds a minute
    Muzzle velocity 1200 - 1600ft/s
    Effective firing range Variable, 100 yards typical, to well over 200 yards by an experienced user
    Feed system Muzzle loaded

    The long rifle is an early example of a firearm using rifling (spiral grooves in the bore), which caused the projectile (commonly a round lead ball) to spin around the axis of its motion. This increased the stability of its trajectory and dramatically improved accuracy over contemporary smooth bore muskets, which were cheaper and more common. Rifled firearms saw their first major combat use in the American colonies during the French and Indian War, and later the American Revolution in the eighteenth century. Then War of 1812, Texan Revolution, and American Civil War.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  19. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    1: Trump was not the one that ordered that area cleared. Barr was.
    2: Washington DC is not a State and is under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government. So you're attempt to use this as an example of him violating States power to handle demonstrations is seriously flawed.
     
  20. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Freedom of movement =/= freedom to drive on public roads. If you walk, you have freedom of movement. You even have a Right to drive your vehicle (freedom of movement) on your own land. Go to any judge and they will tell you that driving on public roads is a privilege, not a right.
     
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  21. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I knew which weapon you were talking about. They were mainly used by snipers, but also light infantry. However the most widely used weapon was the Brown Bess.

    LINK
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  22. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm always glad to add to my understanding. Thanks.
     
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  23. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    No problemo. :) It's not the first time I've been in the same discussion about the guns used in the American Revolutionary War so it was easily looked up again. ;)

    If having discussions on political boards has done anything, its taught me history far better than any school. ;)
     
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  24. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. The % of firearms used to kill someone approaches statistical zero.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  25. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Most suicide attempts without firearms are unsuccessful.
     

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