Is the, "wage gap," a scheme by feminists

Discussion in 'Women's Rights' started by ryobi, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Oh so it sounds like you have a study from a peer reviewed scientific journal showing that the wage gap is 22% and it's a result of discrimination-eh??????????????

    Could you please kindly post a link to that study????

    Thank You in advance!!!!!
     
  2. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Link 404 Error Not found - "The requested URL /content/report...l Report.pdf was not found on this server."

    It is laughable that you call yourself an egalitarean

    Despite the above, when all factors have been taken into consideration there is still a 21% gap.

    In the GAO report, once measurable factors such as choice of industry, choice of occupation, and work patterns were added into the equation, the 44% difference between the earnings of men and women dropped to 21% (GAO, 29). Other studies have found approximately the same results. So, how can the other 21% be explained? Simply, not all factors that could possibly affect wage disparity are measurable. Moreover, it is virtually impossible to come up with every factor that could possibly affect wages (GAO, 19-20). Certainly, other factors exist that have yet to be studied and tested. In addition, there is the possibility of discrimination ("just because you are a woman, I will pay you less"). However, measuring that possibility by examining statistical aggregates, either nationally or in a particular state, is complicated because of the number of variables involved. - http://www.dllr.state.md.us/labor/equalpay/epfindings.shtml
     
  3. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Maryland department of licensing and labor-lol I guess you had to dig deep to find anything that remotely supports your sexist beliefs-eh?????? And even your study says it’s women’s choices that result in the income disparity: choice of industry; choice of occupation; job tenure; marital status, choice to work partime; choice to not work overtime…and your study neglects to take into account women’s choice to receive more non salaried benefits than men, such as: health care, vacation time ec cetera
    According to a study on gender-based wage disparities conducted by the United States General Accounting Office, without adjusting for certain relevant factors that affect wages, women in the U.S. earned 44% less than men during the period of the 1983-2000 (GAO, 44). However, once certain relevant factors were incorporated into the equation, the gap dropped to 21%. Among the significant factors were work patterns, choice of industry, choice of occupation, race, marital status, and job tenure. The two major factors seemingly affecting wages are the differences in industries and occupations females and males choose, and the work patterns they have at those jobs (GAO, 10). The differentiation that occurs in terms of education and the differences in choice of industry and occupation and in work patterns are explored below.

    Differences in career choices between men and women are documented at the college level. Men more often choose majors that are hard sciences; while women choose those involving humanities and education. In 2000, women earned only 36% of all physical science degrees, 27% of all degrees in computer and information sciences, and a mere 17% in engineering (BPWF, 6)
    The other major factor affecting earning differences between men and women is work patterns including the number of hours worked per year, years of experience in the labor force, and the amount of leave taken. The GAO study found that women on average have fewer years of work experience than men (men have 16 years of experience, while women have 12), work fewer hours per year (men work 2147, while women work 1675 - a difference of 472 hours per year), are less likely to work a full-time schedule, and leave the labor force for longer periods of time than men (GAO, 11-12). Taking these differences into consideration, may partially explain why women earn less than men, since they work fewer hours than men..
    National research conducted by IWPR showed that 52% of women have at least one complete calendar year without any earnings in comparison to only 16% of men. A career interruption of one year or more can have a serious impact on one's career and earnings regardless of whether it is a man or a woman. In addition, the demands of motherhood lead women to make other choices that affect their careers. According to Furchtgott-Roth and Stolba in "Women's Figures," in order to accommodate familial needs, women tend to choose occupations where job flexibility is high, salaries are lower, and job skills deteriorate at a slower rate than others (Furchtgott-Roth, 13
    To sum up, women in many professions are making decisions to balance work and family priorities and those decisions result in fewer women reaching the top of their fields. The fact that women work fewer hours per year, are less likely to work a full-time schedule, and leave the labor force for longer periods of time than men, affects both the amount of money women make and the perception of their value in the work force
    In the GAO report, once measurable factors such as choice of industry, choice of occupation, and work patterns were added into the equation, the 44% difference between the earnings of men and women dropped to 21% (GAO, 29). Other studies have found approximately the same results. So, how can the other 21% be explained? Simply, not all factors that could possibly affect wage disparity are measurable. Moreover, it is virtually impossible to come up with every factor that could possibly affect wages (GAO, 19-20). Certainly, other factors exist that have yet to be studied and tested. In addition, there is the possibility of discrimination ("just because you are a woman, I will pay you less"). However, measuring that possibility by examining statistical aggregates, either nationally or in a particular state, is complicated because of the number of variables involved.
     
  4. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Read a real study. A study by the U.S department of labor not a synopsis by some states department of licensing lol

    http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf
     
  5. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Your study states, "Whether the differences in the choices made by men and women are a result of conforming to societal norms or are free choices cannot be definitively concluded,"
    However it has been definitely concluded in one of the most gender neutral countries in the world, Norway, and Sweden, when women and men are given choices they freely choose gender segregated professions, for example 10-11% of engineers are women and the rest are men and the opposite is true in health care jobs in Norway and Sweden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE

    What's laughable is that you think you know what you're talking about-lol

    Gender roles are still clearly visible within the job market as women and men are often concentrated into occupations and job titles that they do not share with the opposite sex. So called "women's jobs" and "men's jobs" still exist within the market, and typically those traditionally held by men tend to pay more than those traditionally held by women.

    In "Still a Man's Labor Market," Rose and Hartman look at the job market in terms of three tiers - elite, good, and less-skilled jobs. They find that in the elite tier, women are concentrated in teaching and nursing; while men are business executives, scientists, doctors, and lawyers. In middle tier jobs, women are secretaries, while men are blue collar workers; and in the lower tier, women are sales clerks, while men work in factory jobs. Within each of the six gender-tier categories, at least 75% of the workers are of one gender; and in each tier, women's jobs pay significantly less than those of male counterparts (Rose, iv).

    Whether the differences in the choices made by men and women are a result of conforming to societal norms or are free choices cannot be definitively concluded, but they exist. Still, the question of why professions typically chosen by women pay less remains. Rose and Hartman's "Still a Man's Labor Market" suggests that jobs chosen by men within each tier of the labor force are typically more skilled or onerous than those chosen by women.
     
  6. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Right a report that disagrees with you is supporting my sexist beliefs :roflol:

    nothing in the above changes the fact that there is a 21% wage gap and even the report itself says it is virtually impossible to come up with every factor and that discrimination is a possibility .. you state there is not discrimination - which you cannot prove.
     
  7. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    So, there's a wage gap - so what? Now, I fully agree that there should be equal pay for equal work, but the fact is that women DO NOT DO EQUAL WORK. I am speaking in the aggregate here, of course (as is the ~21% gap also an aggregate). Be honest, we all know women are, on average, weaker than men. Therefore, in every job requiring strength, they are less qualified, less capable, and less productive. Sure, there are jobs which do not require strength, but those that do require it bring women's averages down. And in some jobs, such as fireman, woman just do not do those jobs often, so obviously their work cannot be "equal". Also, there is the issue of maternity leave. Women will leave their job for maternity leave, while men, although paternity leave exists, will generally not avail themselves of it. Now, you can make all the excuses you want for that, and I can definitely see WHY they do, but the fact remains that the work is not equal.
     
  8. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Read it, and also have read articles disputing it's claims . .though of course you would never read anything that disputed your ideology.

    eg.

    1. CONSAD used a radically different sample of workers than virtually all other wage gap studies. The standard wage gap figure only includes full-time, year-round workers, but CONSAD included part-time (and, I suspect, short-term) workers, which means it’s looking at a significantly different population.

    2. The single largest factor that CONSAD found “explained” the wage gap is the difference in hours worked. Since women are more likely to work part-time, and since CONSAD (unlike standard wage gap studies) included part-time workers in their sample, in effect CONSAD is comparing mostly female part-time workers to mostly male full-time workers. Then — what a surprise! — they determined that the difference in hours worked accounts for a huge portion of the wage gap they measured.

    3. CONSAD's study shows that the wage gap is not caused by sexism — or at least, that no more than 5-7% of the wage gap is caused by sexism. But that’s not a reasonable interpretation of CONSAD’s results. First of all, there are important kinds of direct employer discrimination which CONSAD’s methods cannot measure or disprove. For example, some employers are more likely to hire women to lower-paid positions and men to higher-paid positions. (Empirical testing – by sending male and female testers to apply for the same jobs — has proven that this sort of sexist occupational sorting sometimes happens.) This sort of occupational segregation leads to women’s average work experience not being as good as men’s — which CONSAD’s methodology would classify as an “explained” difference in wage gap that has nothing to do with discrimination. It would be more accurate to conclude that the differences in women’s and men’s resumes may be partly caused by employer discrimination, and CONSAD’s methods cannot account for this.
    Similarly, if employers are less likely to promote women (all else held equal), that would contribute to women being paid less overall — but would CONSAD’s study, again, consider that explained and therefore not discrimination.

    Big mistake is assuming that sexism in the wage gap (if it exists at all, which you deny) is entirely a matter of women being paid less than men for identical jobs. But most economists who study the wage gap believe that it’s caused, to a significant extent, by occupational segregation, which means women and men are sorted by the market into different jobs – and the women’s jobs, on average, pay less.

    Arguments like yours implicitly see the wage gap as all or nothing; either the wage gap is caused by employers hiring women at lower wages for the identical job, or else sexism and discrimination have nothing to do with the wage gap. But this is such a foolish and unsupportable model of how sexism works in the labor market, that there’s no reason at all to use it, unless one is either totally ignorant of real-world labor economics, or seeking a way to rationalize away sexism against women.

    When discussing direct employer discrimination, it’s more realistic to discuss elements like selective hiring, training, promotion ladders, and other things that are a good deal more complex than CONSAD’s vision of the labor market allows for. Given two equally able applicants for a $40,000 job, one male, one female – which one will employers tend to prefer? Once hired, who is more likely to get mentored? Who is more likely to be given the assignments that lead to promotion? Who is more likely to be perceived as doing good work, all else held equal? And if these factors mean that women are rewarded less than men for identical labor market participation, to what degree does that reduce women’s incentive to participate equally in the labor market? All of these are ways that sex discrimination actually happens in the marketplace — and none of them are detectable by by CONSAD’s methods.

    The claim that if women are paid “at least” 93-97% of what men are paid (as CONSAD’s biased study found), that means there’s “no substantive evidence” of a gender wage gap. Even if we accept CONSAD’s results — and we shouldn’t — I don’t believe for a moment that if one out of every twenty dollars earned by a man were withheld because of discrimination, the man would consider it irrelevant.

    You imply that “the Big Lie” is that studies that account for multiple factors (occupational difference, danger, motherhood, experience, hours worked, etc) would not find a significant gender wage gap, and only studies that fail to control for multiple factors find a significant gender wage gap.

    if you knew the first thing about wage gap studies, or had bothered to do even ten minutes of research, you would realize the argument is ridiculous.

    Here are just a few of the many gender wage gap studies that disprove that “Big Lie”: Wood, Corcoran & Courant (1993), Journal of Labor Economics; Dey & Hill (April 2007), American Association of University Women Educational Foundation; “Women’s Earnings” (Oct 2003), United States General Accounting Office; Blau & Kahn (June 2006), Industrial and Labor Relations Review; Mandel & Semyonov (Dec 2005), American Sociological Review; Boraas & Rodgers (March 2003), Monthly Labor Review; Johnson & Solon (Dec 1986), American Economic Review; Mulligan & Rubinstein (August 2008), Quarterly Journal of Economics; Fields & Wolft (Oct 1995), Industrial and Labor Review.
     
  9. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Youtube :roflol::roflol::roflol:

    Ditto to you.

    blah .. blah .. blah
     
  10. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Ah, looking at the entire work force. This is bad, why? Because other people didn't do that?

    Sooo women are more likely to work part time? Does this not, in itself, prove that they are not doing "equal work"?

    Ah yes, more evidence that they are not doing equal work. Thank you.
     
  11. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    comparing apples to oranges is not good research.

    It skews the figures.

    so occupational segregation is not doing equal work in your eyes :roll:

    BTW if you are going to respond to me at least be polite and not cherry pick my comments.
     
  12. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Well, if apples is the work men do, and oranges is the work women do, then that comparison is the basis for the entire wage gap argument.

    On the contrary, it takes ALL the data into account. Not taking it into account skews the figures.



    Well, duh, how can it be equal work if they aren't even doing the same jobs? Talk about comparing apples and oranges.

    I responded to 2 out of 3 numbered points. The third point was just speculation.
     
  13. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Comparing like for like is a true comparison.

    Rubbish.

    Then you don't even understand what occupational segregation is.

    Just as the whole CONRAD report is speculation, hence why they use the word "may" through out it.
     
  14. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    OK, so to be clear, you ARE saying that women do equal work to men, across the board?



    I'm sure you'd prefer the cherry pick the data, but including all data really is more valid.


    Oh, so you're saying they are doing the same jobs, then? Maybe I am misunderstanding you. Segregation means keeping them separate to some extent, right? As in, men are doing more of one job, while women do more of another?


    Well then, since its speculation about speculation, I don't see why I should comment on it.
     
  15. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no.

    It is a myth created by feminists but probably not for those motives. It is more for control and attacking others.
     
  16. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    The study for The Department of Labor takes those other factors that your synopsis by the maryland department of licensing failed to take into account such as men, salaried men, working many more hours of overtime.

    Yes there is indeed a 21% wage gap and the study for The Department of Labor found that all but 5% to 7% of that wage gap can be explained by CHOICE not discrimination.

    Moreover, you can't prove that 5% to 7% is the result of discrimination.
     
  17. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Yes it is hilarious that 166 million euro was withdrawn from the Nordic Gender Research Institute as a result of the documentary in that youtube video which exposed feminists use of bogus science to promote their beliefs.

    Imagine that, feminists using bogus science. That never happens-right No, it has happened again, and again, and again..which is indeed hilarious I agree.

    Also hilarious is the part you "blah blah blah[ed]," comes from your own maryland department of licensing synopsis. Which is indeed hilarious that you think your own study is blah blah blah because it is and I agree with you hahahahaha...........:roflol:
     
  18. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    That is not what I am saying at all .. I am saying compare like for like, nothing more, nothing less.

    Except that the so called research cited in the OP does not include ALL the data.

    Occupational Segregation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_segregation

    Occupational segregation can also be supported by employers who discriminate against women (or men) based solely on their gender ie a woman as qualified as a man with as much experience will be turned down for a job based purely on the fact that of their gender (and vice-versa)

    .

    Then don't

    - - - Updated - - -


    Neither can you disprove it

    - - - Updated - - -

    Having read the study I had no need to read your copy and paste ergo it was blah, blah, blah from you not the study.
     
  19. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    As an Egalitarean I believe women should be equally accountable for the consequences of their actions and choices as men are. As an egalitarean, I believe that's true equality.

    Women should recieve similar sentences as men when they committ the same crimes as men. Instead women recieve 63% lighter sentences than men when they committ the same crimes as men.

    As an egalitarean I believe women should be held just as accountable as men for the consequences of the career CHOICES they make.

    There's no law, written or unwritten, forbidding women from studying STEM.

    Take responsibility for the consequences of your actions and choices.

    You're an adult.
     
  20. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My guess is that all the conservatives who take exception to the comparison of wages between men and women are not nearly such methodological sticklers when it comes to comparisons between the wages of illegal immigrants and American citizens.
     
  21. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Women make choices, and men get blamed for their choices

    makes sense-right :roll:
     
  22. Tram Law

    Tram Law Banned

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    It makes a lot of cents, actually.
     
  23. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    100% agree

    100% agree - though I do see why courts do not do this, though I don't agree with the why

    100% agree

    Correct.

    ------------------

    Now, when you stop reading what you want to read and actually focus on what people like me write you will see that I personally have NEVER said that women who do not have the same qualifications, experience etc etc as men should be paid the same. I have consistently said that in situations where a woman and a man are equal in all aspects to do with their employment they should be paid the same, the only reason in those circumstances why a woman would be paid less is because of discrimination.

    As an Egalitarian do you not believe that two people regardless of their gender should be paid the same for doing the same job, with the same qualifications, and with the same work ethos or not, if not why not, and how does that stack up against your self-proclaimed Egalitarian beliefs?
     
  24. ryobi

    ryobi Well-Known Member

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    Of course, as an egalitarean, I believe two people regardless of their gender should be paid the same for doing the same job, with the same qualifications, and the same work ethic, and except for maybe a few rare cases where are women, doing the same job, with the same qualifications and the same work ethic not paid the same as men???

    However, even though they have hardly any evidence, Feminists promote the idea that there is a 22% wage gap that is a result of gender discrimination. That is, for the most part, a lie. The wage gap is another instance of feminists using anti-intellectualism to promote an idea beneficial to feminism, in this case promoting an idea in almost the complete absence of evidence.

    Look at Foxhastings, Fugazi she has no doubt that there is a 22% wage gap and it's the result of gender discrimination, but where's her evidence??? Where's her study??? I presented a study showing the 22% wage gap is mostly the result of choice. Where's her rebutal????

    As an egalitarean, I don't reject the findings of scientific studies in the absence of credible proof, when those findings don't support my beliefs. When the findings of scientific studies don't support my beliefs, I don't reject the findings. I change my beliefs.

    But do you think the study by the Department of Labor changed Foxhastings mind???? I doubt it. I'd bet money that that study had no effect on her beliefs at all. Want to bet???
     
  25. Fugazi

    Fugazi New Member Past Donor

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    Whether it is 22% or 5% isn't relevant, the fact remains that there is a wage gap that cannot be accounted for by ANY of the research done, even the report you cited admits this so by your own admission you have to accept that there is a discrepancy that cannot (as yet) be explained, now some would say that a small percentage difference doesn't matter, to them I ask would they accept that percentage being removed from their wages for no other reason than their gender?

    Occupational Segregation is also something that needs to be considered and looked into, to simple say that it cannot be proven and as such is irrelevant only reminds me of the following "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
     

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