Is the world better off without religion?

I think spirituality is a wonderful thing. I think all religions have grains of truth in them. I also think organized religions are hijacked as tools for gaining power here on earth. I think we are all aspects of god cut off from the source so that the universe can experience itself. All religions reflect this, just with differing explanations, traditions, and points of view.

I don’t think the world would be better without religion. Religion is the gateway to finding truth for many people. First many people find religion, and rely on that for answers. Then they wake up and realize all the answers can be found by looking within themselves. For some these answers stay aligned with the teachings of the religion, and for some they don’t. Reality itself is literally different for everyone, though we share the same existence. That’s why this world is filled with people with such wildly differing points of view.

Anyway, my thoughts on the subject, lol.

 

Do you have any information supporting the claim that religious people pollute more?

 

They do not necessarily pollute more but they support policy and politicians that actively campaign against measures.
https://www.pewresearch.org/science/2015/10/22/religion-and-views-on-climate-and-energy-issues/

 

Interesting. Unfortunately, those policies cause more harm than good. Regulations only push manufacturing to unregulated countries than end up polluting more. Those contaminants don't stay in China.

Religion aside, those with a genuine concern for the planet consume a Vegan diet and do not create a demand for products that cause pollution.

 

What the founding fathers realized having seen it through history was mixing the power of religious faith with the power of government authority. Which is why the Constitution attempts to stand in the way of that mixing in our society and government. It is why we have the principle of separation church and state and the only mentions of religion in the Constitution are restrictive towards religious faith.

I think the deeper question is the world better off with moral principles that protect human rights and individual rights and promote liberty and freedom. Whether that is based in a religious faith doesn't matter to me, mine are not but if someone wants to base that on a religious faith fine with me as long as those moral beliefs adhere the to former.

 

The moral beliefs is where we get into trouble.

Do you think people should be denied the right to die?
Do you believe in regulating sex between consenting adults? Homosexuality? Consensual prostitution? Consensual gay prostitution?
Do you believe all drugs should be legal?
Should government regulate marriage?
Is a 3 month fetus a human being who is protected by the Constitution?

 

We as a society set morals, some of those get codified into law.

I think the more key question is what moral beliefs does a devout Christian hold that I as plain old non-believer of supernatural beings doesn't hold?

1. I think euthanasia under very strict and no other recourse available as in to end untreatable physical suffering that is leading to impending death is the proper moral position YMMV
2. No. Don't know what you mean by "believe in homosexuality, yes it exist. Yes and Yes with proper health regulations like any other business in which such physical contact is engaged. YMMV
3. Marijuana yes, physcidelics yes, narcotics no, cocaine up in the air. YMMV
4. I believe government should like other things register marriages, because of the legal ramifications as far as property and children produced in the marriage, and that morally marriage is between a man and a woman. I support making sure same sex couples can easily handle joint wills and joint property etc. YMMV
5. I one second zygote is a human being but that is not a moral question that is a biological fact, the real question here is do you believe ALL life is protected or just some life is protected. YMMV

I didn't say we all agree on what are those moral values and the question here is the world better off with religion or not as I said are we better off with or without morals especially those we as a society agree on and some that are codified like laws against rape, robbery, theft, contract enforcement (yes I think we all have moral obligations to abide by our words and signatures), etc etc.

 

Most laws that seek to impose morality are generally religious in origins. Everything that I named are issues where religion seeks to control behavior - historically up to and including torture and death if you disobey.

Religion doesn't impose morality nor does it seek morality. Religion is all about control. Religion has destroyed more lives than all other social influences combined. To talk about morality and religion in the same breath is laughable.

Evangelical support of trump is a great example! They literally made him a biblical figure. The most evil person to hold high office in my lifetime and they adore the repulsive thug.

 

Most laws that have religious origins also have none religious origins. I do not rape women, rob other people, steal others property, go back on my contracted obligations and on and on because of a supernatural being telling me not to do so. As a thinking human being in our society I know such moral beliefs make for a civil society. Are those laws meant to control behavior yes, but they do not require a god.

And PLEASE this is NOT about Trump.

Again what moral beliefs does a Christian hold that I an Atheist, as I am called, do not?

 

Religion is evasion of reality, it surpresses reason and hampers civilisation. The Middle East without religion flourished and Europe with religion was stuck in the Dark Ages.

 

The world is better off without religion. Though, I'm defining religion as an authoritative translation of spirituality. Spirituality should be interpreted individualy, and the world is not necessarily better off without spirituality.

 

A resounding YES.

More wars and deaths and exploitation has been about religion than anything else throughout history.
and they all pose as religions/gods of peace.
Consider Humanism and secularity. IMO the way to protect the future of the human race.

 

Depends on the respective religion.
Some religions deny science.
Others see science as a way to get closer to God by learning to understand his creation.

 

Europe always got religion and if I don't deny that religion had on some topics a bad influence, it had also on other sides positive influences.

The "middle-age" didn't existed, that's a conglomerate of very different centuries, and it's a debatable notion. Many people start the renaissance in 15th century. Yet, during the 11th century, Europe would start to build many universities, that has pathed the way for all modern universities, and some are still there, the oldest universities in the world. There is no real common point between the Europe that just saw the roman empire collapse and the 11th century university building Europe.
Those universities got huge contribution by the catholic church. And if by the way some texts disappeared because of religious motives, it's also the monks (and the arabs) that allowed us to keep many texts.

I won't deny entirely the damage that zealotry or religious dogmatism caused, they existed, but a lot of things reproached are more myth than actual reality.

 

Yes, childhood conditioning is difficult to throw off. I had no such problem because my family wasn't religious.

 

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Abrahamic religion encourages submission and celebrates suffering. What matters is not this life, but "the next life" and religion is thus even a revolt against life. It is very, very hard to make the case that religion fosters a better world.

 

I agree with that critic, a very Nietzschean critic. But still, reality is more nuanced.

For instance, the idea of human right come indirectly from Christianity where every human being would be judged on their acts. It's under the influence of the catholic church that slavery would disappeared in Europe during the middle age. That disappearance of slavery would be the base that would lead to the more wide spread disappearance of slavery during the 19th century.

We're able to disapprove some things today, yet it come from the legacy of Christianity.

I would compare that to flawed parent, you're a kid, you revere your parents, you're a teenager, you might become their harshest critic, then you grow up and realize there were simply humans, you accept them on their strength, understand they did that best.
I'm no professional historian, but seeing the influence of Abrahamic religions as purely negative, the deeper you're studying history, the more you realize the nuances in that. The influence of Christianity is nuanced. Furthermore, a lot of things you consider as obvious are only obvious because you're a result of that religion, such a certain universalism. Western secular humanism is a result and child of Christianity, that they like it or not, as a Child, you don't have to reproduce the model of your parent, but like it or not, you're a result of your parents, with your qualities.

Reject Christianity ? You can. I did not rejected Christianity on a personal level because I grew up already in a dechristianized place, and the values of Christianity aren't mine.

But to do what ? Is the world better with unhinged consumerism, narcissism, where the other one is seen as nothing but a pleasure tool ? What's the project, replacing the promise of paradise to become a wage slave that find comfort in artificial paradise such pornography, video games and drugs.

That illusion that world would be better without religion is just a sterile arrogance, a hubris as said the ancient Greeks. The question isn't : are religion perfect ? But would the world be better ?
The thing is, we all have "gods". We might not all have a big bearded angry man that can send you forever to hell "god", but money, pleasure, power, they're common "gods". The question, is what do you choose ? What would drive your life then ? What would drive government then ? Economical growth ?

 

No, that is a rational abstraction from the facts of reality -- Man has to be free from force in order to flourish.

Slavery disappeared during the rebellion against Christianity that was the Enlightenment. Only the placement of reason above faith could achieve that.

Sadly, a lot of the altruist nonesense from Christianity still lives on in our culture today.

Religion would be the equivalence of a dead beat parent who thinks he deserves cred for doing nothing but harm.

The only reason Christianity had some positive impact was Aquinos' redisvovery of Aristotle. But, he - allegedly - burned all of his works later in life. Such a whimp.

Good.

You replace faith with reason and mysticism with reality. The promise of paradise is fantasy, man should create his own paradise on Earth because this life is the only one he gets. You are the author of your own actions and thus have the full capacity to do that. Presenting it as a case of either paradise or "wage slavery with porn and drugs" is a false alternative.

The alternative to superstition, self-sacrifice and subordinance is reality, pursuit of happinesd and liberty.

Tell that to every immigrant who fled the theocratic hellhole of Iran for a better life in the secular West.

That should not even be a question that anyone feels the need to ask since the evidence is crystal clear.

I do not have any gods. Gods are supernatural and thus sometjing that, by definition, can only exist in one's fantasy. There are real, living people I admire, but that is not the same thing as blind, faith-based worship.

My own values drive my life and government should be run with reason.

 

I do not think it is fully possible to be fully happy and religious. Why? Because religion advocates self-sacrifice and teaches pleasure and enjoyment is a sin. Religion forces you to be in constant fear of committing sin and imposes shame on you for doing what you want.

Enjoyed a nice dinner? Sorry, that's a sin. Enjoyed a nice, romantic evening with your lover? Sorry, that's a sin. Enjoy your job and feel happy on payday? Sorry, that's a sin. Proud of your achievements? Sorry, that's a sin.

Religion denies reality, limits the individual and declares suffering and misery a virtue whereas fun and achievement are sins. Mother Theresa who did not actually do anything for humanity is a saint because she suffered trying to help others. Steve Jobs who has done more for humanity is a demon because he dared making money and improve his own life selling his inventions.

I just do not see how this can be good in any way, shape or form at all.

 

Slavery disappeared from Europe during middle age and started back with transatlantic slave trade, a law would forbid any kind of slavery in France in 1315 and would tells "anyone who set the foot on France would be free", unfortunately two centuries later, the law would be exploited and colonies not considered mainland France.
That's a historic fact that slavery disappeared from western Europe during middle age before reappearing with the Renaissance, all your enlightenment philosophers 1) They all grew up with a Christian education and were full of christian values 2) they developed that idea by growing up and living in a part of the world where there were no slaves, as paradoxal it was as a part of the economical elite were living from a slave trade.

They still founded universities, kept large libraries in monasteries and so on.

And how many people died during the 20th century for promises of paradise on earth ? My point isn't that replacement of religion would only

What do you think require to be happy ?

Oh, yes, because all hellhole are because of the religion, there is no China, no USSR, no North Korea, no red Khmers. People kill, slaughters in name of different ideologies, sometimes religious ideologies, but you are really naive enough to think that the world would be a dream. Would you prefer to live in Christian Chile or in atheist North Korea ?

Reason come from doubt not by shouting "reason, reason", you can do a lot of things with reason, you can optimize for instance a system to exterminate people. Reason is a method, not a morale value. And there is wide gap between claiming to be reasonable, and actually be, there is many unreasonable fool that believe hard as iron that they're reasonable.

 

Yeah, great proponents of knowledge those Christians. Just ask Gallileo.

Too many.

Rational pursuit of one's values.

Socialism shares the same values as Christianity -- Self-sacrifice and altruism.

True. Which is why you need a reason-based, rational philosophy.

Chile is not a theocracy.

No, that would be irrational.

Wrong.

Very true.

 

Someday the world might be better without it, but not before humans as a species are ready to move beyond the fairy tale stories we made up to make the night seem less long and dark. Religion still serves to help some people lead better lives. Granted, it can also have the opposite effect too. But until our intellectual leanings have moved past the need for a religious security blanket and religious tribalism, I'm not sure it would end up a better place than it is now.

 

Gallileo could happen because there was universities build five centuries before him, build by who ? Christians. At the opposite of you, my point isn't to stay in a dualism of is religion "good or bad", because it's neither. So my point isn't to prove that religion is "good", but that many troubles reproached to religion are deeper problems.

It could be, but I see many people getting what they want, pursuing what they thought they want, yet still unhappy.

Quite universal values, furthermore, you can't praise the abolishement of slavery on what side, and disapprove altruism on what was based that abolishement.

Rational method is the methodic doubt. Furthermore, it's unreasonable to think we're reasonable, we're full of different feelings, and the only way to be less irrational is to recognize that emotional part within us. There is nothing more unreasonable than someone who blind to this own feeling think he is reasonable.
Furthermore, a lot of things can't be on a practical level being run with doubt, such relationship with people, as the first impulse your approach would determine a lot.
Yes, by the way it's important to educate people and children to reason, that imply to educate them to the scientific method, the notion of occam's razor, cognitive bias, yet that isn't contradictory with having a religious life.

And so ? You would still prefer to live in that christian majority nation that surrounded by other fellow atheists.

Islamic communities tend to have problem with jihadism extremism, China reply it by removing muslims by killing them. That's absolutly wrong on a morale level, yet it's efficient and reasonable.
Reason is a method of thinking that can be used to determine a result, absolute reason would required to doubt of everything, and the trouble of that is that the thinker that decided to doubt of everything, he stopped to doubt of everything by calling it god, I don't like this argument, it's to me a bad one, a "because I decided to", but nobody can be absolutly reasonnable as nobody as the way of doubting of everythiing.

So reason isn't a method of thinking ? I'm surprised.
Reason determine what it is the most efficient, not what's good or bad.

 

i think that just depends on the religion, lol. I mean, satanism is a religion, and it promotes doing all those things. Not that I think Satanism is a good thing either, haha. I don’t know a whole lot about it but I think it might go too far in the other direction, lol. The point is, different religions promote different values.
I like spirituality instead of organized religion, as the answers come from within you, rather than an the rules laid out by an organization that can all too easily be corrupted by human greed. The books in the Bible were approved by a Roman Emperor... hmmmmm... I wonder what his motivations were, lol.

 

Not religion, but the right to religion is as crucial as free choice and our separation from the slavish whims of all powerful Kings and Rulers. As such, religion, all its abuses aside, is a sweet flower and a breath of fresh spring morning air, apart from the hopeless gruel of soul crushing tyranny which pains the spirit and poisons our hearts with contempt. I will take the right to religion any day. And whether we embrace an organized religion or not, at least we are free. That's "trading up" to me.