Is there life floating in the clouds of Venus?

Discussion in 'Science' started by Space_Time, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    This would be a big surprise. And they have just detected a miniscule amount of phosphine. It's way to early yet:
     
  2. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    Have they discovered life in Venus's atmosphere? Could be. :)
     
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  3. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    I hope they do this:
     
  4. Josh77

    Josh77 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What an awesome story! I hope they really look into this possibility.
     
  5. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    If I had to bet I'd say no. According to reports I've read there are two possible explanations for these findings. The first is 'yes', there is life in the upper atmosphere of Venus. The problem then is - how did it get there?

    As far as we are aware at the moment life on Earth evolved on the surface of the planet and while you can sample bacteria and similar life forms in Earth's upper atmosphere there's no evidence to date that they actually 'live' there and haven't just been swept up from the Earth's land and oceans via convection currents and are simply being carried around 'swirling' in the atmosphere until they fall from back to the surface in rain etc at some point. In other words there's no solid evidence of an atmospheric 'ecosystem' consisting of strains of bacteria that have adapted to life in the clouds and grow and reproduce there and no-where else.

    That being the case how would such life forms evolve on Venus? They certainly cant have been swept off the surface of the planet and up into the 'habitable zone', not in the last billion or so years anyway. The surface of Venus is as about as hostile an environment to life as you can find in the solar system. That means they either had to have evolved there prior to Venus's oxygen/water leaching away or 'else' migrated' there from somewhere else. And it also requires a stable 'island' of atmosphere that not only suits bacterial life but also never (and I do me never ever) mixes with any other layers - for tens or hundreds of millions of years!

    The other, more mundane explanation presented was that the phosphine detected in the atmosphere resulted from well understood 'industrial like' chemical processes that are ongoing down on or near the surface of the planet involving the element prosperous being subjected to heat and chemical reactions which change it into phosphine.

    So as much as my heart wants it to be the former my head tells me its probably the latter. Happy to be proven wrong of course.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  6. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    Actually I think that, perhaps, the pressure on Venus is relatable to the pressure of the ocean on Earth. So perhaps some sort of life might be floating or swimming in the atmosphere on Venus. I'm not quite sure about that though.
     
  7. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    I don't think much can happen now because of the way the atmosphere is:
     
  8. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm.. Life on Venus could have evolved from a hot gaseous environment in a similar manner to life in a volcanic vent. And just because you speculate that there is no life on a gas giant doesn't mean it isn't there. May be there is life on Venus, little good it would do us.
     
  9. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Or it could be produced without life. Has anyone produced it n the lab?
     
  10. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    More likely geothermal processes than biological.

    However, it has been pointed out that the temperatures in the upper atmosphere of Venus would be just fine for humans.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  12. DavidMK

    DavidMK Well-Known Member

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    Not how this gas forms. It can be synthesized in a lab but otherwise anaerobic life is the only way this gas can be produced. The energy requirements to produce it naturally without life simply doesn't exist on Venus. Unless a thus far undiscovered method of production exists (a possibility that keeps them form saying it's life with certainty) then we just discovered aliens.

    The real question is if it's original life or related to Terran life somehow.
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is not necessarily true, although its possible origins from geothermal processes is not very well understood.
    On Venus it would be more likely to form because Earth has oxygen in its atmosphere.

    Just one possible mechanism, there could be a compound between phoshorous and sulfur volatizing into the atmosphere from volcanic activity, and then this compound breaking down in Venus's upper atmosphere and interacting with the hydrogen radicals there (from the ultraviolet breakdown of water).
    I am not sure how plausible this might be, but it is just one example.

    We know there is phosphine in Jupiter's atmosphere.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  14. DavidMK

    DavidMK Well-Known Member

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    But Jupiter is basically a giant fission reactor. It's geothermal processes can produce all sorts of crazy things that (like liquid metal hydrogen) that on a terrestrial scale can only be done in a lab. Unless theirs a hidden industrial civilization on Venus (which would still mean life) this is proof of anaerobic life.

    The report wasn't possible life, it was life is the most logical conclusion. That's big and what little hedging they're doing is just because they don't have any direct evidence (aka samples of said life). The world's various space agencies are going to tripping over themselves to get those samples now.
     
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  15. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    So Venus is basically a planet-sized cesspool?

    Oh well, I knew there had to be some problem with Beauteous Venusian Warriors
     
  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There was an incident that was recorded on Earth that is consistent with phosphine release from geothermal processes.
    See this thread and all the posts further down: Curious phenomena in Venezuela
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let's face it, as unlikely as traces of phosphine from volcanic-geothermal processes is, it's still much more likely the alternative - microorganisms on Venus.

    The surface of the planet is hot enough to melt lead, and much hotter than the record for microbes being able to survive heat on Earth.
    It would be questionable how microbes could survive suspended in the upper atmosphere without constantly being churned down below and baked.

    But yes, I think it's worth a look. It shouldn't be too hard to send a probe into the upper atmosphere of Venus and collect samples.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  18. DavidMK

    DavidMK Well-Known Member

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    You're overlooking how thick the atmosphere is. It's 1atm and ~80F 35 miles up. On earth that'd be LEO. Think of it less as microbes floating in the atmosphere and more plankton floating in the ocean. As for how they got there, Venus wasn't always like this and it didn't change over night. Life would have arisen in similar conditions as it did here and had tens if not hundreds of millions of years to evolve as the planet warmed.
     
  19. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't life have evolved there too?
     
  20. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Why does Trump always do this? Is this some sort of thing crazy people do, that they seek out people even crazier than they are?

    Remember Exidor on the old "Mork and Mindy" show? I'm expecting Trump to introduce him as our newest Space Force Advisor next.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  21. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that 'ocean' has to sit there unperturbed by other atmospheric levels for millions of years non-stop. As far as I am aware nature doesn't work that way, not on any planets in the solar system. Regardless of the height/pressure involved different layers of a planets atmosphere intermingle and merge via convection currents, turbulence, gravity, planetary geography and surface conditions (e.g vulcanism) and a host of other factors.

    Even Earths oceans which in effect are just another layer of 'atmosphere' over the crust aren't stable in terms of 'layers', there's constant intermingling. It may take hundreds or thousands of years for water at the surface to sink to the bottom, move around the globe and then rise to the surface again but it happens

    There's simply no way for a 'stable' layer of atmosphere on Venus to remain so for long enough that a permanent ecology evolves.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  22. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I apologize for post 20. My machine is being very wonky and I got the forums confused without noticing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I could accept that the turbulance is an important part of the equation - such as with our oceans.

    Also, deep sea fumeroles may have been important.

    I'm not so sure that sufficient stability on Venus is impossible if one considers that a system that includes convection, etc. could be considered stable.

    I think scientists have suspected that particles can ride the upwellings that occur due to heating and the subsequent descent as cooling takes place and that this process could have been ongoing for a long time.
     
  24. ricmortis

    ricmortis Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if it is possible where Venus was once like earth but destroyed itself via nuclear warfare causing the planet to spin like it does with a crazy atmosphere now and people escaped to earth.
     
  25. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Errr ... no. For a start Venus rates very slowly - it has a day length of 243 Terran days! Think about that for a minute . That's 4 month long night! Under 'normal' Earth like conditions you'd have a huge variation in surface temperatures with baking hot mid day temperatures and freezing mid night temperatures. The result would be 24/7 cyclonic wind patterns as the atmosphere tried to redistribute all that hot and cold air to achieve some kind of equilibrium. Earths rotation on the other hand was faster at the time life first evolved here than it is now. I think the rate is slowing at something like a millisecond every century. So life on earth is adapted to a far faster, completely different day/night cycle.

    Then also we know hominids have been on Earth for about 1.5 million years and we know Venus has been in its current state for far longer than that because we can estimate the rate at which its primordially atmosphere would lose all its water which was waaaay further back in time than that.
     
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