Is this baby part of the woman's body?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by kazenatsu, Aug 7, 2017.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One of the pro-choice arguments I've come across frequently here is that, supposedly, the fetus is part of the woman's body, and therefore it's hers to do with as she pleases.

    Would you consider this baby to be a part of the woman's body?

    upload_2017-8-7_13-29-27.png

    It is still connected to the woman's body. That umbilical cord has not been cut yet.

    This baby was delivered by C-section. However, there's something I want to point out to you.
    As far as I know, it's never actually been done before, but the doctors could have put the baby back in, to stew in the crockpot for another week.

    Just because the placenta has been opened doesn't mean the pregnancy is over. If that was the case, neonatal surgeries wouldn't be possible (that's where they perform surgical operations on the fetus before it has been born).

    So a question: Is this baby, the one that the doctor is holding up, "part of the woman's body" ?
    Will it become part of the woman's body if the doctors put it back in?

    At which stage in this hypothetical is abortion ok? Outside the womb not ok but inside is?

    The fetus is still connected to her, drawing oxygen and nutrients from her blood supply.
    Let's make this hypothetical more interesting and assume there is something wrong with the baby's lungs, it was taken out too prematurely and it can't breathe on its own, which the doctors didn't realize until they had taken the baby out.

    It seems obvious to me that the "it's a part of the woman's body" argument has some severe logical inconsistencies and can't stand on its own. I think the situation being described here demonstrates that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  2. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You've had it explained by another poster in another thread why it is not as simple as cutting the umbilical cord.

    Yet you try another attempt at the asinine.


    Your complete lack of knowledge of what the physical relationship between the woman and fetus is stops your "argument" cold.


    The only "logical inconsistencies" are in your mind.
     
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  3. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Is this baby part of the woman's body?

    No....to be a baby if inherently and absolutely must leave the womans body, that is what defines it as a baby. We have separate terms until it does.
     
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  4. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well I support abortion to an extent but I don't support partial birth abortion.

    You may ask me at what stage it's the cut off point for abortion, in my book, but I've forgotten the stages of fetal development. At what week it's at what maturity level.
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fair enough. So you don't believe it makes any difference whether the fetus is dangling outside the woman's body, it's all a matter of what stage of gestational development it's in, correct?

    Or does where the fetus is make a difference?
    I mean, at some borderline stage of development, it might be ok to abort inside the woman but this same termination of life would not be ok if it took place outside the woman's body, even though the fetus was still connected.

    Now, if this is the case, can you explain to me why it's ok killing inside but not outside? Is it just some instinctual emotional reaction or is there actually a logical reason for that position?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  6. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    As someone who's taken part in alien DNA experiments, where I knew they were going to implant embryos in my arm, and then take the embryos out, and put them in a machine to mature for a few weeks, and then cut them up for research, I would say it doesn't matter whether the fetus is inside or outside the woman. It was fine by me because the alien said they were too immature to feel pain.

    It was more concerning to me when I found out the aliens had so much material, because all three embryos had grown to a big size because I took care of them so well, that they were going to let them live and wanted to know how I wanted them to be raised.. :alientwo:
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That reminds me of the abortion scene in Prometheus, where the woman had sex with a man she later found out had been infected, and then after everyone else has been killed off and she's all alone she realizes she is pregnant—with something that's not quite human—and she tries to get the creature out of her body with the emergency automated surgery machine:



    I'm sure that's how many pro-choicers see pregnancy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  8. Cigar

    Cigar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It ain't my body to decide
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And it ain't just hers either.
     
  10. Cigar

    Cigar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    .. and you don't speak for anyone but you.
     
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  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    23 weeks is the legal cut off for abortions UNLESS there is danger to the life/health of woman or fetus.
     
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  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) Yes, I'm sure you get ALL your "information" on pregnancy and abortion from fiction...it's obvious ...too bad your little make believe world isn't the real one...


    Tell me what proof you have that you know what "many" Pro-Choicers think?????
     
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  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You: """I mean, at some borderline stage of development, it might be ok to abort inside the woman but this same termination of life would not be ok if it took place outside the woman's body, even though the fetus was still connected."""


    23 weeks is the cut off.....whether it's inside the woman (legal) or lying around on the table (legal)...


    IF you continually deny that viability features in all this then, of course, you'll never get it....but rant on, you are affecting nothing and no one..
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
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  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So let me get this straight: if the baby in that picture was only 22 weeks old, it would be the mother's right to terminate it, that's what you're saying correct?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  15. hoosier88

    hoosier88 Well-Known Member

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    This is absurd. It's like you've been served a four-course dinner, & you want to exclusively discuss the parsley. The criteria for abortion are set forth in Roe v. Wade. It's not the position of the fetus, nor its location that's important. Roe sets fetal viability outside of the womb - deliverance, in other words - as the bright line between fetus & baby.

    Roe sets up a framework by trimesters, which you can consult. Look up Roe v. Wade, any good website will fill in the details. The woman can abort in the first trimester, essentially @ her discretion. After that, the state can begin to legislate controls on the procedure, & in the third trimester abortions are much more restricted.
     
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  16. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's called a UTERUS (not a placenta) and as long as the zef is INSIDE OF AND ATTACHED TO her body, it's her choice.
     
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  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, I meant amniotic sac.

    What about when it's outside her body but still attached?

    (That's sort of the whole premise in the opening post)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  18. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    The baby in your photo is so far from 22 weeks but you need that distortion to prove whatever point you think you have...

    Actually yes if the fetus came out alive at 22 weeks the woman can kill it...


    Did you ever find a point that is connected to the real world???? No.



    Have you changed anything in the real world? No.

    Do you think you ever could? No. :)


    I'm sure you get ALL your "information" on pregnancy and abortion from fiction...it's obvious ...too bad your little make believe world isn't the real one...


    Tell me what proof you have that you know what "many" Pro-Choicers think?????
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
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  19. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then it's a person and illegal to kill it.
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And if the doctors put it back in, it becomes a non-person again, correct?
     
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  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) Hardly......that only happens in your world of make believe....
     
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  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So as soon as it comes out, it permanently gains personhood, and remains that way, even if the pregnancy continues, is that what you personally believe?
    So it is possible for a woman to be carrying a person inside her uterus. Did I misunderstand you?

    Sorry if you're painting yourself into a corner here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, there are no corners in your make believe world where doctors flip babies in and out of women for no reason....

    When the fetus "comes out" , is born, it is a person....the pregnancy is over.
     
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  24. Zeffy

    Zeffy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why, oh why, do anti choicers come up with such idiotic scenarios?
     
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  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's potentially possible in the foreseeable future that doctors might remove a fetus outside of a woman to perform surgery on it and then put it back in.

    If your logic can't apply to a scenario, no matter how unlikely that scenario may be, then your logic has a fundamental fault.
    These sort of thought experiments can help us see the beliefs we hold in a new light, so we can see any inconsistencies.

    It was the same with Albert Einstein. He had this idea of what would it look like if you were riding on a ray of light. A "thought experiment" is what he called it. That's how he eventually came to the conclusion that approaching light speed slows down time to a standstill. Of course we all know it's impossible to ride on a ray of light, but that visualization helped him view things from a different perspective.

    It seems like pro-choicers don't want to see that different perspective.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
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