Is this Human?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Bowerbird, Sep 17, 2021.

?

Is this human

  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    29.4%
  2. No

    12 vote(s)
    70.6%
  1. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    They are not separate. The ZEF lives in and of the woman carrying it and cannot even survive outside of her body. It is the de facto physically attached to her and is thus by definition not separate.

    The dead do not have any rights. They are not alive anymore and cannot have rights and do not need rights since rights have the purpose of protecting the individual from force so that they can thrive and pursue their values.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  2. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would have preferred a link to that wikipedia page, so that I could easily link to, or look up, their sources for myself.

    That said: I stand by my earlier posts here, that it is not a person, a human being, until viability.

    In your post, it's called a "developing" human, meaning that if it continues to grow, it may eventually develop into a human being.

    And I say again, until it is born, it is no business of the government's, nor of yours, nor of mine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  3. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you choose, self-servingly to your argument, to ignore the meanings of words and the actual textbooks and the science there is not much I can do about it. Yes humans develop to adults, it takes about 20 years to do so and we continue develop even as adults. From conception you were a human and you were being, a unique individual. You didn't become a human being later at some arbitrary point YOU can't even determine what that would be based on anything scientific or biological.

    And my cite has the link to Princeton University from which the text come from their paper on the matter.

    Further to that and please take the time to read them all and reflect on what is the science, what is taught in Biology and and sub section of Embryology and try refuting it with the science.


    "Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
    [Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


    "The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
    [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


    "Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
    [Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


    "I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
    [Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


    "The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
    [Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


    "The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
    [Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


    "Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
    [Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


    "The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
    [Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


    "Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
    [O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


    "Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
    [Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


    "[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
    "[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
    "I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
    "The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
    [Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]



    https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

    So what the scientific side on the anti-abortion side says is if we are going to have this public discourse on abortion policy and determine what our laws should reflect then let's do it base in reality. Base on the science and biology. And that is the fact that in an abortion it is a human being that is killed. An individual human being, a person. Let's have our laws reflect. Let's have our laws weighed against that. Let's not pretend otherwise having to jump through the hoops, the making up of words, the having to use monikers and denying our common language.

    Let's at least acknowledge what happens in an abortion, that that "choice" is to kill another human being.
     
  4. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sigh, yes they are SEPERATE, that is the PURPOSE of the placenta and umbilically cord. That is the purpose of the womb and the environment it creates to protect the baby from the mother's body killing it.

    And the unborn baby is alive so stop with the specious argument about dead people.


    Is the Unborn Part of the Mother's Body?

    ...Physiologically, we must accept that the conceptus is, in a very large measure, in charge of the pregnancy.... Biologically, at no stage can we subscribe to the view that the fetus is a mere appendage of the mother.... It is the embryo who stops his mother’s periods and makes her womb habitable by developing a placenta and a protective capsule of fluid for himself. He regulates his own amniotic fluid volume and although women speak of their waters breaking or their membranes rupturing, these structures belong to the fetus. And finally, it is the fetus, not the mother, who decides when labor should be initiated.[4]

    Dr. Peter Nathanielsz of Cornell University concurs. He says that the unborn’s brain sends a message to his own pituitary gland which in turn stimulates the adrenal cortex to secrete a hormone which stimulates the mother’s uterus to contract.[5] A woman goes into labor not because her body is ready to surrender the unborn child, but because the unborn child is ready to leave her body.

    Being inside something is not the same as being part of something. One’s body does not belong to another’s body merely because of proximity. A car is not part of a garage because it is parked there. A loaf of bread is not part of the oven in which it is baked. Louise Brown, the first test-tube baby, was conceived when sperm and egg joined in a petri dish. She was no more a part of her mother’s body when placed there than she had been part of the petri dish where her life began. A child is not part of the body in which she is carried. As a person inside a house is not part of the house, so a person inside another’s body is not part of that person’s body.

    Human beings should not be discriminated against because of their place of residence. A person is a person whether she lives in a mansion or an apartment or on the street. She is a person whether she’s trapped in a cave, lying dependently in a care center, or residing within her mother. We all believe a premature baby lying in a hospital incubator deserves to live. Would the same baby deserve to live any less simply because she was still in her mother?...
    https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Mar/29/unborn-part-mothers-body/

    The science.
     
  5. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I citing the science I thought we were supposed to follow the science. I'm not talking rights I have been talking about what is a human being, a person and you have been declaring that I am in error yet you have not presented anything to refute the science.

    Your arguments have been based on the fallacious premise that the unborn baby is not a human, is not a human being, is not a person and therefore they can be indiscriminately killed in an abortion. I have shown that the premise of that argument is false. The science says otherwise. Refute it.
     
  6. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    You have not proven anything and I won't try to refute anything until you address my points. Your gigantic copy-pasta has no argument for anything at all.

    I have told you what rights are , what a person is and why a ZEF does not qualify for any of the two. Niw, it is actually up to you to refute my points.
     
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  7. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    None of that is even relevant to my point, nor does it refute my stance that an embryo/fetus is not a human being, not a person. None of that even touches upon the fact that if a woman is pregnant, it is her business and not mine, or yours, or the state's.

    You can get as clinical as your like, it's your own time wasted, but you cannot convince me that a fetus is a human being.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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  8. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    It is the statement of scientific fact as taught in our science and medical colleges, I'm not arguing rights the claim has been made and continues to be made that the life of the human being does not begin at conception. That is fallacious nonsense.
     
  9. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    They each directly refute you fallacious statement, you can be a science denier if you want but don't claim your denials as science or they refute long established science fact. And if there is to be a factual discussion about abortion then we must factual consider what happens in that abortion, an innocent human life is killed.

    If you want to try and refute that then do so with the science.

    "Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
    [Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
  10. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Bullshit. The studies you copied and pasted speak of a developing human, not a human being ... yet.

    You're still trying to apply an unprovable, emotionally-based concept of personhood to a life that would not be not viable outside of the womb.
     
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  11. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    "Life" in what sense of the word? Cancers and viruses are also lives afterall..

    A fetus is a lifeform even more primitive than a frog, so it is foolish to argue it should have rights or take precendence over an adult woman.

    Why should the unwillinfly pregnant woman sacrifice her lige and value to a piece of protoplasm?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
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  12. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The biological as I have cited and have no obligation to repeat it over and over while it remains unrefuted. If you want to talk rights then let's do so from an honest perspective and accept the fact that the human being is created at conception and from that point on it is a human being and that we all begin with the right life, the highest right there is.

    And a human life from the moment of conception is not merely "a piece of protoplasm", Biology 101.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2021
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    :) So what?
     
  14. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You'll have to scroll back and read the entire conversation although I was clear in myvlast post.
     
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    LOL, here you go again...evade, duck, dodge,
     
  16. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    My posisitions have been completed stated scroll back.
     
  17. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, what do I call the "science project" growing in a plastic covered dish in my fridge? It started out as pot roast, but there are all manner of life forms developing.

    Sorry for the sarcasm, and I don't mean to belittle what could become a human being by comparing it to rotten leftovers, but Biology 101 does not refer to a fetus as a human, just as a developing human, meaning it has that potential. You seem to want a fetus to be protected by assigning it attributes it does not yet posess, like the ability to survive once it is no longer supported by the womb.

    Back in my own childbearing years, if I became pregnant, I felt no obligation to report my medical condition to anyone aside from my ob/gyn. I have that right, as does every woman in America. Let's please keep it that way.
     
  18. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    You believe the leftovers in fridge could morph into a human? Do you mean the bacteria and mold that may be GROWING in it, yes that is life. And yes biology 101 and the science and medicine call it a human being, a developing human being just as we develop throughout our entire lives. I have cited the science and you nor anyone else has refuted what is taught in our colleges and universities. Nothing magical happens as the baby passes through the vagina opening or through the opening a doctor creates in a c-section that turns the human being that was just residing in the womb into a human being.

    If you want to claim a right to kill that human being then do so but don't try to hide behind the fallacious claims you can do so because it is not a human being, an unborn baby.
     
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    LOL, here you go again...evade, duck, dodge,

    Ya, your position on when life starts...NOT what results from that position or what meaning it would have in the real world.....:)
    ..evade, duck, dodge,
     
  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    LOL, and you don't know what being born entails ???LOLOLOL
     
  21. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yea I have and with you for years. Now do you have anything to refute what I have stated HERE or just diversions?

    What do you think I am missing? What magic happens during the birth that turns the "thing" being born into a human being and provide the science that backs it up.

    The biological as I have cited and have no obligation to repeat it over and over while it remains unrefuted. If you want to talk rights then let's do so from an honest perspective and accept the fact that the human being is created at conception and from that point on it is a human being and that we all begin with the right life, the highest right there is.

    So you agree or not? If not why not?
     
  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    LOL, here you go again...evade, duck, dodge,



    Ya, your position on when life starts...NOT what results from that position or what meaning it would have in the real world.....:)
    ..evade, duck, dodge,
    NO, you have NEVER stated what your position MEANS in regard to abortion...or anything else.




    Why do I have to refute you....can't you answer questions about your position? Why not?

    The diversions are all yours...






    EVERYTHING that happens to women and the fetus at birth.

    I am sorry you think a ZEF just floats unattached to the woman it's in for 9 months for no reason.
     
  23. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I have expressed it specifically in threads concerning those matters this discussion does not.



    Can you be a little more specific as in what do you claim I do not know about the biology? Gifts specious claim was just resfuted.

    I'm sorry you think fallacious nonsense about what I believe.
     
  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I like punctuation...got any?

    And LOL, yes, I'm sure somewhere you actually MAY have stated what your point is but it isn't important enough for me to look for it...

    :) In the time you posted here you COULD HAVE stated your point if you had one..:)




    You don't know what happens to women and fetuses at birth....you seem to think a ZEF just floats unattached inside a woman for 9 months for no reason and that is NOT true.
     
  25. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Again, strictly biologically speaking, there are lot of things that are lives. So, the fact that fetus is a life is not much of an argument for a fetus' right to life.

    I am being completely honest. You, however, are either being dishonest or just ignorant. Saying that a fetus is a hu,an bevause that is how we all start out is conflating the potential with the actual. All of is who are born have actualised that potential and we are also different from a fetus in the most basic perceptual level. I would say it is pure ignorance to argue a fetus is a human being, but enough of that for now.

    Yes, please. Let's discuss rights for once. What are rights, where do they come from and what makes the necessary? And how do they apply to a fetus?

    It literally is unless you are saying you are a single cell organism.
     

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