Is this the end for Venezuela Socialism?

Discussion in 'Central & South America' started by Poohbear, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    So far no food and medical aid has made it across the Venezuelan border.
    Aid trucks have been burned.
    A Puerto Rico ship carrying 250 tons of aid was forced to turn back.
    Brazil and Columbia shipments were blocked and people fired upon.
    Defections in the Venezuelan army grow daily.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/23/reu...ers-defect-ahead-of-border-aid-operation.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/v...rs-clash-as-border-tensions-rise-video-report

    The heart of this tragedy was the nationalization of the Venezuelan oil industry
    in 1976 by Perez. When the oil slumped in 1998 to $10 a barrel the country was
    in dire straits. The Socialist Chavez came to power, a man described as having
    "encyclopedic ignorance" of anything other than Socialism. Chavez replaced key
    figures in the oil industry with political lackeys. He used oil profits for social welfare
    programs. This prevented the industry from investing and opening new wells.
    America held minority stakes in oil production and managed to keep oil flowing
    when massive riots broke out. America help save Chavez.
    Chavez sacked 18,000 oil personnel in a Stalinist style purge. So bad was the
    situation that he asked the USA to help train new people. Then Chavez began
    squeezing foreign Capitalist corporations, raiding more money from the industry
    for school lunches, housing, clinics etc..
    By 2007 Chavez was forcing oil executives to produce and distribute milk, strip-
    mining the oil industry of its talent as that was all the talent left in the country.
    Much of this oil now goes to its Socialist brothers - China, Russia and Cuba, not
    for cash but for debt, further starving the people.
    Until now America kept the remaining oil industry afloat by refusing to sanction
    the entire industry.
    It's strange how the real story of this sad nation has been so neatly inverted by
    those who are Socialist bed fellows of Comrade Maduro.
     
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  2. Horhey

    Horhey Well-Known Member

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    I hope not.
    From the CIA’s Fact Book:
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  3. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, a seriously bad move.
    If I had a multi-billion dollar corporation that was in trouble I would
    scout around for the smartest man (yes, man) with tons of experience
    and relevant connections. I would pay him whatever he wanted - just
    get this company back on its feet.
    If my company is worth a trillion dollars I'll pay him a billion per annum.

    Forget the Worker Collective. That's Marxist Claptrap. Marx never ran
    a business in his life, but he certainly helped to destroy many of them,
    along with a lot of lives.

    The Venezuelan oil company PDVSA was first run by executives and
    technocrats. You can't have rivals for power in a Socialist mono-culture
    so these were dismissed. After the collapse of the PDSVA the Socialists
    put the army chiefs in command - thus bribing them to stay on the side
    of the government and shoot starving people.

    In ForeignPolicy.com there's a very concise article on how this unfolded.
    Read it please, and inform me if it's wrong.

    How Venezuela Struck It Poor
    The tragic — and totally avoidable — self-destruction of one of the
    world’s richest oil economies.


    https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/16/how-venezuela-struck-it-poor-oil-energy-chavez/
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Socialism seemed to work well for Venezuela as long as it was just the oil industry they socialized. But then they went further.

    There's a quote somewhere from Lenin about the "commanding heights" of the economy. Basically he didn't actually want to go full out Communist in the Russian economy but other radicals in the Party put pressure on him to do it. They wanted to stick to ideological purity. Lenin had only wanted to nationalize the big industries like steel production.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  5. Horhey

    Horhey Well-Known Member

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    Its like this man. The elites want their hands on this resource rich country and they want the freedom to rob and exploit. That's what the term "democracy" means to them. The freedom to rob and exploit. And they'll do and say anything to get it. Funding b.s. studies and NGO reports, think tanks, media propaganda and even military intervention and do on. Its like how the oil companies fund studies that deny climate change is human caused.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  6. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Sure oil companies (some at least) can deny Global Warming. They
    also denied Global Freezing in the late 1970's but that's all forgotten
    now - completely and utterly.
    But oil companies do what companies do - they protect their interest,
    and their interest is to get oil to you (yes you) at a reasonable price
    so they can continue to maintain, invest and explore for more oil.
    When such companies are socialized they become instruments of the
    Ruling Elite. They get milked, their board is fired or murdered, their
    technocrats flee or get murdered, their workers go on strike or get
    murdered.
    America kept Venezuela going through all this. Firstly in providing
    oil income when the Venezuelan workers shut down the state oil
    industry. They provided training for the socialist workers who took
    over and they kept the oil flowing during the Maduro years.

    Don't listen to any Marxist/Trotskyist/Maoist/Democratic Socialist
    tell you how companies ought to run - they haven't got an idea -
    and that's been proven for 100 years.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
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  7. Horhey

    Horhey Well-Known Member

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    Government ineptitude and corruption is to blame for their economic problems, compounded with a sharp drop in oil prices induced by the US, as well as hoarding of goods by local businesses, price speculation by the capitalist class, RON PAUL style exchange rate management, and US sanctions.

    Blaming it on socialism is ideologically driven wishful thinking. Remember kids. Socialism is workers control over production. Not State managed industries. Nothing for you to be clutching your pearls about. You don't like regulations? Fine. Ok. Whatever.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  8. For Topical Use Only

    For Topical Use Only Well-Known Member

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    Beat those imperialist war drums for your masters, you tiny slaves, and you'll love.
     
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  9. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    No US control over OPEC or oil prices (low prices destroyed their own oil industry)
    no US sanctions against Venezuelan population (until 2019)
    Sanctions only the Corrupt Ruling Elite Socialist Class
     
  10. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Is this the end for Venezuela Socialism?"

    You mean, is the United Snakes poised to take the FINAL STEP in destroying democracy in Venezuela as it did during "Operation TP Ajax" in Iran, the fake WMD hoax in Irak, the phony communist take-over of Cuba, Grenada, and Vietnam? Is that the question that lurks behind the OP Head Line?
     
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  11. sharik

    sharik Well-Known Member

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    you do realise what a mess of a comment you just posted?

    even if that sort of drivel is perfectly in line with defamation pratice of the west...

    still why so much contradiction? where's common sense? where's logic?

    since the west tells lies, it could at least have cared it sounded plausible...

    no way.
     
  12. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    The "west tells lies"
    So what country do you think tells the truth? And, do they have
    anyone within their borders to publicly assess the truth of statements?

    In 2002 the oil workers went on strike. They hoped to topple the
    corrupt Chavez government. They would have succeeded as the
    whole country was up in arms - but the American company Conoco
    Phillips, along with Chevron, kept the economy going with 200,000
    barrels a day production.

    According to Congressional Research Services:
    Sanctions against Venezuela - targeted sanctions against almost 100
    individuals, related to terrorism, drug trafficking, trafficking in persons,
    antidemocratic actions, human rights violations, and corruption.
    Most recently, on January 28, 2019, the Trump Administration announced
    sanctions on Venezuela’s state-oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela,
    S.A., or PdVSA.
     
  13. sharik

    sharik Well-Known Member

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    let us put it in plain English - the CIA's aptitude and US corruption is to blame for Venezuela crisis.
     
  14. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Wait, what... ?????
    Did the CIA take control of Venezuela's oil industry and drive it into the ground?
    Did the CIA seize farmer's land and disrupt agriculture?
    Did the CIA harass, intimidate, jail or execute enemies of Maduro and Chavez?
    Did the CIA control OPEC to drive down oil prices.

    In a word, no
     
  15. sharik

    sharik Well-Known Member

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    neither... so we have to look at facts and events as they stand, not as presented by the media.
     
  16. Vegas giants

    Vegas giants Banned

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    Yes this is the end of fascism in Venezuela
     
  17. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Oh, okay. No media.
    Of course, you do know there are "State medias" such as China and North Korea?
    These parrot the government line.

    And there's "free media" such as Europe and North America?
    These come in left and right wing varieties - more leftist and liberal generally.

    So what else is there? You talking about on-line information?
    I think that's the same too - so I am stumped.
     
  18. sharik

    sharik Well-Known Member

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    their interest lied in something like this happened.
    if it occurred really, then USA was the profiteer, so yes this was the CIA.
    depends on if the program was sabotaged by CIA agents to lump innocents with the guilty.
    no, and oil prices don't cause such crises.
     
  19. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Will Venezuela become Trump's Big War? I certainly hope not. Geographically and climactically Venezuela is Vietnam, not Iraq.

    I have gone on record as saying I don't believe Trump will step down in 2020 and I still hold that position, a war like this could be his perfect excuse not to turn over power during the "Crisis"
     
  20. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    So let's get this clear. The oil crisis DIDN'T EFFECT VENEZUELA AT ALL.
    And, CHAVEZ AND MADURO WORKED FOR THE CIA.
    Interesting theory, that.
     
  21. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    The crisis is now my friend. Pueto Rico, Brazil and Columbia all are
    trying to get aid to Venezuela. There is fighting on the borders as
    the Socialist Elites seek to stop them. It could unravel quite easily
    now. If this crisis continues to 2020 there won't be any Venezuelans
    left, other than the Ruling Elite of course.
     
  22. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Granny says, "Dat's right...

    ... dey gonna have a revolution...

    ... an' run Maduro outta town onna rail."
     
  23. sharik

    sharik Well-Known Member

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    no more effect than the rest of the world could suffer, and this effect is totally overshadowed & consumed by the political crisis in Venezuela today.
    no, and the US gives clear message these two are not their men. CIA agent were among some other Venezuela officials, as well as the 'opposition' leaders.
     
  24. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't call Russia and Imperialist in the Venezuelan sense,
    at least not yet.
    China is certainly Imperialist with Tibet, Taiwan, Sth China Sea etc
    and Russia wants to restore its old Soviet borders, seizing newly
    liberal nations like Georgia, Ukraine etc..
    And certainly, sucking the oil out of Venezuela to pay for debt isn't
    helping the poor.
    Maybe in the future both these nations might consider a Soviet
    style empire, starting with Venezuela.
     
  25. Poohbear

    Poohbear Well-Known Member

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    Me - Did the CIA seize farmer's land and disrupt agriculture?
    You - if it occurred really, then USA was the profiteer, so yes this was the CIA.
     

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